Does anyone else disagree with the notion of seeing as many cheap flops as possible in the early going?
My experience is that limping–and what else would you consider to be cheap?–either courts disaster or draws an insufficient yield. If you hit and bet the flop, the only callers are the ones on draws or with a better kicker. If you play it slow, someone’s hand (usually not yours) improves.
I think it’s better to pay attention to position and hand selection than to just pan for gold in a muddy stream. That isn’t to say I won’t limp with suited connectors or small-to-mid-sized pairs, but I know I’m not going to get much love, so I tend to play fewer hands in the opening stages than I do in the late going.
Optimally, one doesn’t want to be in the bottom half of the leaderboard in the middle stages of the tournament, but I find it’s manageable. If I’ve gone away for a while, then raise when everyone behind me folds, or everyone except the player to my immediate right who has just limped from a middle position, I will usually steal the blinds, which are now sufficiently high to substantially boost my stack. Keep in mind I’m doing this with a reasonably strong hand and decent range, but if I don’t run into a monster in the blinds, I can quickly become relevant again.
Whenever I’ve tried to see every cheap hand that comes along, I tend to dig myself an inescapable hole. When I pick my spots and make well-priced bets, I give luck a better opportunity to find me.
Once I heard, only way to get chips is putting chips in the pot. I am not going to question your range or betting size. I am talking about how often and how wide you would get in terms of betting and range. I am sure your will mix up so that others won’t notice your style, but I am sure you will sometimes have to bet at the most awkward situation and I won’t hesitate to bet. You will loose, and you will win, but you will never know which one is on your way.
Mid range hole cards can be used in many different way. Mostly these cards are well suited for bluff. Connected off suit, mid pocket, even low connected cards, all these are not considered strong but you may use them for some benefits along the way when other player’s range is tight.
Position wise, you know how it is. In Replay poker, player often thinks that you should limp or check if you don’t hit. But that is not always true. Early position, you can squeeze a bit. In position, you can bluff a bit. You will have to risk once or twice if you really want a big chip lead and that is not something that we call a cheap hand. Blind goes up, there will be less and less chance of this glorious chip ups cause everyone will tighten up their range.
I still haven’t fully understood your question’s true intention. However, early aggression probably give you two advantages. First, you will see how other reacts and have a chance to analyze it. Second, you will get some extra chips on your hand to play with so that you can go strong in mid game.
I hope this helped you a bit. My view is clearly show some aggression when your can afford cheaply and take small victory, cause all will add up in the end.
Don’t limp suited connectors. You limp 6h5h, you let in 7h2h and a ton of other suited combos that have you dominated. More importantly, if you raise, you can bluff on high card boards and have coverage on low card boards.
I think when rebuys or PKO’s are in play there’s probably an incentive to see cheap flops, I wasn’t even aware it was the conventional wisdom outside of that. It seems counter productive to me too.
Yes, every pro poker player and coach in the world disagrees with it. Why? Because it’s bad poker.
You can always tell who the fish are by all the limping. Hoping for as many cheap flops as possible is just that - hope. It’s poor man’s poker. Any limp pot has to hit to continue, especially in a multiway pot, and limp pots invite all kinds of garbage to the multiway party. If you are in a multiway limp and you don’t have it, guaranteed someone else does and they’re not folding. That harmless J82 2-tone spade flop, someone has 82 or T7 or K4sp here because no one raised to clear out the junk. What are the chances that you hit that flop yourself? 1 in 3. What are the chances that you’re the one with the 82? About 1 in 9. Not good.
Then of course there is the squeeze factor. Throwing away 1bb every other hand because the CO has AJs and opens for 5x. What, you didn’t think that would happen?
Even when I raise a suited connector, I risk a suited ace or Broadway hand that counterfeits my flush draw. Fewer combinations, sure, but the risk is still there. No strategy is foolproof.
Did your dad (or maybe your mom, don’t want to be sexist) ever take you fishing? If so, I’m sure they told you to be quiet so as not to scare away the fish. Always raising preflop is loud. You scare away the fish and attract the sharks. I think there has to be a balance between raising and limping preflop that keeps the rest of the table relaxed, giving you room to maneuver.
Depends what you mean by always raising pre. Raising like a maniac? I’m not into that. Always raising pre our tight range and folding the rest? Absolutely. Sure, there are limps, but only in limp spots, such as speculative hand late position, or pot odds on the SB with crap. Specifically against fish, I’m not super concerned about image balance because Fish is only generally aware of our image and even then only when we are rage maniac or super stone nit. That’s not to say that I never manage my image. I’m just less concerned with it when the calibre of Villain is low.
Against better players, yes, we want an image balance but I’m still not straying much from standard limp spots for my limps.
LMAO--------" open proper or fold" you once asked for poker tips from me ( i know sarcastically lol )…you play the player- against ppl. that play like this (like you do) i would just check and let the fish keep putting money in the pot and then lower the boom:)…good luck at the tables
Suited connectors are break even hands at best, and raising them won’t change that, but limping them will basically guarantee that they’re losing hands over the long run. Just because there isn’t a foolproof strategy doesn’t mean there can’t be losing strategies. Your not really saving much by limping, and raising does a lot of good stuff for you (folding them is better than limping too)
One, if you always raise and never call when entering a pot, that will annoy a table that wants to limp to every flop. Again, scaring the fish.
Two, I always work on my table image because a) there aren’t just fish at the table, and b) it’s a good habit to get into even when it isn’t appreciated.
Okay, you called down, which is not my definition of making a well-priced bet. For me, making a bet would either be leading out or raising. By my definition, Alfie set the preflop price. It drew four callers so despite being 8bb, it wasn’t effective.
From there, Leo Mac took over with his aces. His mistake was not making a well-priced re-raise to get rid of you. He did make a pot bet on the flop that you called, despite it being a third of your stack. Not sure I’d have done that with only bottom pair and five front-door outs in a hand that was raised preflop, but sure, that was giving luck the opportunity to find you.
PS, when you share a hand link, tell us your hand so we have context while watching. We don’t know until the end. There is no fast-forward or rewind, so I had to watch the hand twice, once to see the outcome and a second time to understand your perspective.
[quote=“pickettpocket, post:1, topic:57106”]
Whenever I’ve tried to see every cheap hand that comes along, I tend to dig myself an inescapable hole. When I pick my spots and make well-priced bets, I give luck a better opportunity to find me.
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This dilemma comes to everyone. I am quite curious why people just have to bet more when it is cheap. Just playing your game would solve this problem, isn’t it?