Don't Limp

Replay Poker Poker Strategy
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Here’s an Interesting hand Losing Limps

If you’ve read my button thread, it’s the same tournament against the same big stack bully on my left. This is a bit earlier, maybe the half-hour mark?

This hand is basically decided pre-flop. ~ It’s 6-max, I’m on the big and there are 3 limpers. Wisely, the SB folds (I suppose, I mean I don’t know what he had), but mr aggro on my left limps UtG. (!!) I’m literally living up to my screen name with my T2o (heh) but if I can check to close the action I’ll happily do it with these two napkins.

Flop ~ Well aint that sweet, 2-pair. 2-pair that I never should have been allowed to see!

The rest, well, we don’t need too much analysis other than "why would BT bluff that dry board with air? Because there’s no way anyone would play junk that hits it - unless limping allowed someone’s junk to see it. ; ) The point is:

This is what happens when you limp. You give junk a free flop, you get sucked out. Don’t @#$% limp. Especially in early position. If you have strong cards early, BET them, if you don’t, muck 'em.

In the chat the other day a couple of guys were complaining of losing with great hands. I told them, “You’re not betting enough pre-flop.” A bit later I was on the big with 82s (suited hah!) and the table let me check it. I flopped 82 and took it down. The one guy said, “You played 8 2 ???” I said “I checked big blind. If you don’t want to lose to junk, raise pre.”

I will say that the only time that I limp is with junk in late position. If the table is weak as @#$% and my stack is deep enough, I limp with junk but only after seeing everyone else limp.

But also, this is important. If you are on the big and have a chance to close the limp action with GOOD cards, BET!

Remember: limp pots make every card on a flop scary! If the flop is cheap people will see the flop with total rags! That 8-J-2 rainbow that shouldn’t scare anyone is actually full of danger when you let 4 or 5 people see the flop for min price. You just put yourself in a bad spot and you don’t even realize it. Wake up. Don’t limp.

People limp sooo much that I will limp with junk from the SB knowing damn well that the BB will close the action FOR me! Sometimes the table is so weak that I will limp from BT or CO knowing that the blinds will close it FOR me! It’s found money.

Don’t limp!

(or keep limping and I’ll keep taking your chips, thx) ; )

This public service announcement is brought to you by your friendly neighborhood napkin holder.

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Nice to have you here on the forums @napkin_holder! Someone talking sense!

@daslda NO LIMPIES <3

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And to your point: it’s been a running exploit of mine on Replay for months now that I almost never fold my SB when there’s at least 1 limper. I will complete freakin’ 62o. The BB is never going to raise unless they have an absolute monster, and I’ll be allowed to realize way more of my postflop equity than I have any right to, even being OOP for the rest of the hand.

I probably take it too far but that’s more or less my governing meta in Replay MTTs: get away with as much as you can until someone slaps your hand and forces you to act like a responsible adult XD

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I’m not really used to all your technical terms but limping I

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understand you mentioned 26o very recently my BB ante 200 dealt me 26 o 5 of 9 bet ante. the flop 626 everyone checked what should I have done? I went all in upon reflection this I think was bad however when I started playing I posed a Q why do my winning hands always get beat on the river and younguru stated simply “Dont let it get to the river” Something not forgotten was I right or should I have limped and if limped when should you bet the turn or the river ty

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remember math and I have an understanding WE despise each other

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Limping simply means to call the big blind pre-flop. Limping only pertains to pre-flop play. Anything after the flop is another matter.

Generally it is considered a bad play to limp, especially in early position. Most players look for limpers as an easy sign to find bad players. If you limp, not only will you unnecessarily slowly leak money from your stack you will also put a bigass target on yourself for good players to come after you.

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@napkin_holder I just realized I literally called out 62o as a trash hand I will sometimes limp with in MTT play when I feel my table is soft lol

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Hey, I’ll call with anything in that situation, but It’d be a cold day in hell if I ever call 5x with it.

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hahaha fair
just a funny co-inkee dink

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@napkin_holder

Well said, this can be clearly observed in an ordinary reg-fest online NL cash game, there is technically 0 limp and only min-raise at max.

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I generally agree that limping is terrible, especially in early position, especially with semi premium flop vulnerable hands like TT, JJ, QQ, AK, AQ suited, and especially limping those semi premium flop vulnerable hands in early position, against 6,7,8,9 other limpers, on a limp happy passive table, where about 50% to be outflopped, and where only about a 4% chance, someone will wake up with a good enough hand to raise that’s not as good as your limped semi premium flop vulnerable hand, to bail your donk limp of your semi premium flop vulnerable hand against a limp happy passive table in early position.

Also bad to limp junk in early position, out of position.

Recently a KK limped in UTG, and I limped 44 on button, hit a set postflop, stacked the KK player, and promptly said that’s what happens when you limp KK, etc, instead of raising like you should.

That said, I’ll limp maginal hands that have good postflop playability, and when hits a monster hand is disguised. Hands like T9s, JTs, QTs, QJs, KT suited, KJs, A8s, A9s, ATs, 33,44,55,66. Hands like T9, JT, QT is good to limp in, on cut off, button, SB behind limpers in front, with good pot odds. The rest of the QJ suited, KT suited, KJs, A8s, A9s, ATs, can either be limped from any position, including early position, but is better off limped in later position behind other limpers when have good pot odds, etc, in order to monster hand mine, when not raising, squeezing the limp ins with KJs, A8s, A9s, ATs, 44,55,66, in later positions.

Limping is not something to do a lot, and limping in early position should only be very rarely done.

And beginners, etc, should limp less then better, experienced players, as beginner players often can’t escape if limped hand hits board, while better players, etc, can escape, if their limped hand hits board.

So yeah limping in general, except for exceptions, is generally not good, and is generally bad.

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We all think alike. ; )

Of course the reason that we can mine monsters and suckouts is because … people LET us by limping!

So many folks limp UtG or MP with AA, KK, QQ, AK etc and then @#$% that the game is rigged because they keep getting sucked out. The game is not rigged. You’re just playing badly. Stop limping and raise pre! :+1:

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After reading your words I’m slightly confused i thought the object of the game would be to get as many of your opponents chips while maintaining a level of securing your own but 99% of the time if you go all in preflop most if not all fold leaving you with a BB & SB ante at best if a hand is that good your prepared to go all in surely it would be best to see the flop and limp till some one bets no? that way you maximize your winnings yes? or am I getting this all wrong? thought i was haveing problems with math but hey english aint proving to well by the looks of it lol

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Let me see if i got this right if i was limping on your table and your stack was deep enough you would bet big enough to close me down or take me out of the gtame thus allowing me the chance3 to come straight back with what could ne a winning hand?allowing me to maximize my winnings?

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You only “get the chips in” when you feel that you have a strong chance of winning. Pre-flop is TOO EARLY to know how strong your chance of winning is. The object of pre-flop is to decide if you want to see the flop or not (do you have good cards?), and if you do THEN bet to make ENOUGH people FOLD. No one will fold if you just call the big blind (limp).

Think of it this way. If you have AA and AFTER the flop there is only one opponent, only one person has a chance to get lucky and beat you, so the chances that you will win the hand at showdown are something like 90% (I don’t know exact percent). We LIKE 90% yes yes yes!

BUT … if you have AA and AFTER the flop there are THREE opponents, now there are THREE times the chances that someone will get lucky and beat you (a suck out). The chances that AA will win showdown against 3 opponents is only 44%. We don’t like 44% bad bad bad! : ( This is why your AA loses so much. The game is NOT rigged. You just need to bet bigger. ; )

So how do we make sure that only 1 or 2 opponents see the flop? We BET bigger. 3 times the big blind, or 4 times the big blind, or 5 times the big blind, see?

If there are 9 people at the table, you have 8 opponents. If you limp and 6 of them call then you have to beat SIX PEOPLE after flop! OMG! bad bad bad! If you bet 4x or 5x big blind, and 6 or 7 people FOLD, you only have to beat 1 or 2 people after flop. ; ) yes yes YES! You will win A LOT! Not always but lots lots LOTS!

See? : D

It depends on what position I am in and what position you are in and how good my cards are.

If you are the first to bet and you limp with 99, and I have good cards like AK, I will raise 3 or 4 or 5 times the big blind. You will probably fold. I want you to fold. So now you fold and the flop goes J-9-3 and I don’t have to worry about your 999 because you’re out. ; )

If you are the first person to act and you limp with 99, and I have weak cards like 83o, I will limp too and see the flop cheaply. Now if the flop is KK9, I just fold because I only paid 1 big blind to see it, but if the flop is 83Q I have TWO PAIR and you only have 99, haha! ; )

See?

So if you are first to act and you have 99, BET 3x 4x or 5x big blind and I will fold 83 and my BAD cards can NEVER beat you, haha!. ; )

See?

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@Amygdala you raise a good point.

It’s quite valuable to win pots without showdown, as this is always uncontested profit. It feels bad when we raise preflop with AA and everyone folds, but it beats the pants off losing with AA. At the same time, AA is the most profitable starting hand by far, so if we’re playing in such a way that when we have it we mostly force our opponents to fold preflop, you’re right, we’d be leaving a lot of value on the table.

Thus we have a kind of paradoxical dynamic in No Limit games:

  1. we’d like to drive out opponents, so we can win the blinds uncontested,
  2. we don’t want everyone to just fold all the time when we have the good stuff, because that’s when we can make the biggest profit

The mistake players often make is to balance 1) and 2) by being less aggressive with strong hands. They limp with AA or AK and check or bet the minimum on favorable flops, trying to “sucker in” weaker holdings. This works sometimes, but too often it lets opponents off the hook when they would’ve paid a lot more, or worse, gives a marginal hand too much room to make an unexpected 2pair etc. and crack our premium.

Instead, we should balance by also taking aggressive actions at some frequency with our less strong hands. If we only raise big with AA/KK/QQ and play other hands more passively, it’s easy for opponents to play correctly: they just fold when we bet big. But if we raise big with AA/KK/QQ 80% of the time, and then raise big with 66-JJ 60% of the time, and with KQo and QJs 40% of the time, and with 78s and 44 20% of the time… you get the idea. Now it’s a lot harder for opponents to tell what it means when we take aggressive action preflop. Our best hands win more chips because they’re supported by our bluff and semi-bluff hands—knowing 78s is sometimes in our raising range helps us extract more value with AA. And our worst hands win more chips because they’re supported by our value hands—knowing AA is sometimes in our raising range helps us steal more blinds with 78s.

If we were to mostly limp, we’d lose all of these benefits. Basically pros avoid limping because it’s so much more profitable to play bigger pots, on average, when we voluntarily participate in a hand.

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Guru is 100% correct, but if what he says is confusing, this is the important part.

What he means is, pre-flop ideally we want to bet just enough to make everyone fold except for one or two people. Post-flop can be different, but we are talking about pre-flop.

Think of it this way, if you are in a race with one other person and you are pretty fast, you will probably win. If you are in a race with 6 other people and you are pretty fast, there is a god chance that you finish 2nd or 3rd. In a poker hand you DO NOT WANT to finish 2nd, it’s BAD! You lose money.

Do you like money? Then bet enough to make MOST people fold. That is the trick.

How do we do this? If we have good cards, we find the right amount of bet to make people fold (if we have have bad cards, we just fold).

When you sit at the table pay attention to people folding. At a 6-max table you watch 2 orbits (12 hands) or 3 orbits (18 hands) and if you bet 3x big blind for 2 or 3 orbits and only half the people fold, then try 4x. If they still only half, then try 5x. In rare cases you might have to go 8x or 10x (very rare). If you bet 3x and everyone is folding then maybe try 2.5x big blind. Find that sweet spot. Every table is different, and sometimes that sweet spot can change depending who leaves or joins or how small the stacks get. But almost always it’s somewhere between 3x and 5x big blind.

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My thing is tournament play, which is much different than ring play.
There are many different factors involved which affect ones pre flop betting, such as position, the current size of the BB, knowing anything about the players style of play, the size of everyones stack and so on.
I agree in general limping is a bad idea, even though sometimes it can work out.
Even if you have a marginal hand, you’re better off with less opponents increasing your odds of winning.
I’ll ask myself if I limp, am I willing to see a decent raise? If not then just fold or make a decent raise myself which may be a semi-bluff. If you only raise premium hands, everybody gets the hang and just folds which isn’t great.
If you do limp a premium hand, you have to be prepared to possibly fold, if you doubt you can do that, then like the title…Don’t Limp.
Have a nice day.

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After all, it’s poker, lot of luck involved, sometimes it goes like this, that’s when you take a break :weary: