I’m bad with computers, didn’t paste the hand correctly…QQ tripled the blind to 1800, I went all in with aces, queen on the river, ouch.
To all you limpers:
If you have a meh hand, just fold pre.
If you have a strong hand, you want ISOLATION, so raise pre.
Do you have any idea how many times the table has let me call 1bb from the button with 62o and I flop 62 and take down their A9s, then they stomp and have a tantrum “game is rigged!” The game is not rigged. They all LET me hit with 62 for cheap. If they would have raised ANYTHING I would have folded my garbage and they would have been ahead with their suited A. It’s not rigged. They played badly.
But it’s always better to get a cheap flop, right?
No. If you have decent cards in your pocket, you want the flop to be expensive. A cheap flop is only good if you are in late position with a meh hand. No other situation.
But if I have a strong hand I want everyone to call, right?
No, not pre-flop. ‘Getting the money in’ is strictly a post-flop move, at least for non-pro players.
I will explain ISOLATION. You will hear poker coaches talking about this. They may use the term isolation or you may hear the phrase “aim for ONE caller.” These mean the same thing.
Let’s say that you have KK.
You bet 4x and get ONE caller. If an A shows up on the flop, what are the chances that Villain has an A? Well, he called 4x pre so Ax is a good chunk of his range. The chances that he has one are pretty good, so you might be in trouble here, but at least you KNOW. ; ) Your 4x pre bet TELLS you that he might actually have it, see?
However, if the flop comes up J63-rainbow, what are the chances that Villain has JJ or 66 (or possibly 33 if Villain is in late position?) If he is a tight player, only JJ is in his range. If he is a looser player, 66 and 33 are just the very bottom of his range. Think about it. Who is going to call 4x pre with J6? What about 54? Not likely, mmmaybe suited (only 4 combos there). So Villain’s range is capped here in this case and you know you are almost certainly ahead (even though we just whiffed!). If you really are afraid of an A you can probably bet half-pot and up to fold his A-rag, otherwise you are in a position to value bet. If he has AJ, even better, because he will call thinking that he is ahead with TPTK (remember AJ now only has 5 outs to you with 2 cards to come). In any case, we can certainly c-bet this flop, even out of position as the PFR.
Now let’s take that KK and limp it. Hey, we have cowboys, the 2nd best hand in all of hold’em. We want everyone in the pot so that we can take their money, right? Uhh, not really. Let’s take a look.
We limp and see the flop 4-handed (3 Villains). If an A shows up on the flop, what are the chances that ONE of the 3 Villains has an A? About 3 TIMES more than in heads-up. This SUCKS!
So big deal. How often will an A over hit the board when we have KK? Let’s look at that J63-rainbow again. What are the chances that someone has JJ? Actually not that good since no one raised, but then again we limped our cowboys, so chances are about even that someone could limp hooks too. What are the chances that someone limped 66 or 33? Actually pretty good. Those are both well within range. Why? Because at 1bb pre, EVERYTHING is in range! At 1bb, most fish will call with 2 squares of toilet paper! That includes total crap like J6, J3, 63, 54, 75, 42 … oh and ALL of A-rag, suited or not. There’s a whole lot of stuff here that can take down your KK quite easily. This sucks just as hard as A over!
Not only that, but there are THREE Villains out there and only ONE of them has to hit to take you down. Finishing 2nd in the 100 meter sprint gets a silver medal. That’s good. Finishing 2nd in a poker hand loses the most money at the table. That’s bad. Verrryyy bad!
But what if we hit a K? Awesome, we value bet nice and thin and get all the money in. But that happens something like what (someone refresh my memory on the math to flop a set?) 12% of the time? What do we do the other 88% of the time? We need to be ready for that. We prepare for this by raising pre and making people fold their crap.
Here’s yet another factor. Player types come into play. What if we are 3-handed with a nit, a call station and a competent regular? We have to play all three of those guys differently. If we bluff the nit, the call station will call with his backdoor flush. If we value bet the station, the competent guy could check-raise or jam us with a set. We are handcuffed.
So we want to ISOLATE. No matter what two cards are in our pocket. ISOLATE, ALWAYS. That means, bet enough pre-flop to make everyone but ONE caller call.
But this doesn’t make any sense. If we bet 5x pre, only strong hands will call. We want only weak hands to call, right? True, but there is absolutely nothing that we can do to force 72o to call us. All that we can do is make sure that 72o doesn’t hit the flop. We do that by raising our strong hand pre because Villain cannot hit if he has already folded. ; ) Then we can play poker against hopefully one other strong hand, but we will have a good idea of what he has, which makes it much much easier to control the hand. When we limp and go multiway, we are shooting our bullets with a blindfold on. It’s impossible to play.
Limping AA is btw - the NUMBER ONE reason why your bullets are getting sucked out and you think that the game is rigged. It’s not rigged. You are just not playing the pre-flop very well.
There are 4 streets, pre-flop, flop, turn, river. Play on each one should represent 25% of the value of the hand, right? NO! Pre-flop play (in my humble estimation) represents (on average - hands can vary wildly) probably 40%-50% of the value of the hand.
So how do we guarantee being heads-up on the flop? We can’t. Every hand is different. Every table is different. Sometimes we will bet 3x and everyone will fold to AA. That’s too bad but that is not a disaster. Sometimes we will bet 8x and everyone will call. That would be pretty rare but it can happen. If we are opening 3x and repeatedly getting 3 and 4 callers, we size up until we consistently get 1 or 2 callers. That’s all we can do.
The amount is almost always 3x to 5x the bb + 1bb for each limper. An example: we are in the CO. UtG limps (that’s 1). +1 and +2 fold. HJ limps (that’s 2). So we use 3bb +2bb = 5bb as an opening bet size (with our strong hand). In fact, at low stakes there is a LOT of calling pre, so I prefer 4x + limpers to thin the herd.
Also realize that we will play with a much tighter range in early position than in late position, but pre-flop range is another thread.
1 Like
again someone limps in and allows me to play my hand. result I got a good pot. placed 17th out 153
love limpers
I get same hand that I cracked above. I didn’t limp and used my stack to advantage. which player above should’ve done preflop
https://www.casino.org/replaypoker/hand/replay/1232104025
again got same hand and didn’t limp. got a caller thank goodness I dodged ace. dodges their straight draws.
https://www.casino.org/replaypoker/hand/replay/1232107746
I think you lay out a great argument and then arrive at the wrong conclusion. Limping is bad in a field where rfi is high, like in actual cash tourneys and the like. However on replay the rfi is very low, so as you correctly point out playing hands that can mature into the nuts (Axs, suited connectors, etc) then limping becomes GOOD even from late position, because you are rarely being punished for limping A6s utg or 78s or w/e.
In addition to this alot of replay players default to donk bet the minimum or trap because they are afraid you will fold, because that is what they do when they dont have top pair top kicker lol. Not often do i see people looking to extract max value from potentially dominated hands, this allows you to float way more than you should be able to, giving these marginal hands way more equity.
So in conclusion, when players limp way to much, limp with them too, just not with garbage, but with hands that can turn into the nuts and profit.
When i play real money against a field with higher rfi, i limp less, when i play on replay i limp more because its an exploit.
2 Likes
Amygdala, there are times that are good to limp. Such as when against hyper aggressive maniacs that will do your betting for you. At a table full of the Nittiest players in poker history that fold 99% of time. When there are limpers in front, giving you good pot odds, and the blinds are so small that not worth squeezing. etc, with marginal hands like KJ, KT, K9, Q9, QT, QJ, A7, A8, A9, JT, T9 suited, T8 suited, 98 suited, 97 suited, 87 suited, in late position, on the hi jack, cut off, button positions, behind limpers in front to monster hand mine.
If you have a premium hand, and dont want everyone to fold, then raising 2.75 x bb standard raise is usually low enough to get 1,2,3 callers, thin the field a little, and is better then limping.
If you semi consistently limp premiums, especially in late position, behind limpers in front, you have about a 49% chance to get outflopped, beat by all the lots of limpers, and only have about a 5% to 10% to 15% to 20% chance to get paid off, have your bad limp paid off. Its just usually is not good, not worth limping good hands.
Trust me, others on this. I have lost lots when I have limped, slowplayed monster hands in BAD spots, situations.
There are times to limp as exceptions, and there are a lot of times not to limp.
Actually you misunderstood my post, comment.
Limping or not limping is very case, situation dependent.
BAD:
- When RFI, raise first in, is HIGH.
1A. When have a premium, facing a HIGH RFI, hyper aggressive maniacs, limping premiums in early position can be good, to trap them, because they will do your betting, raising for you.
1B. When you have A6 suited, A7 suited, A8 suited, KJ, KT, K9, Q9, QT, QJ, JT, J9 suited, T9 suited, T8 suited, 98 suited, 97 suited, 87 suited, 22, 33, etc, then HIGH RFI is BAD to limp those hands, especially in early position, UTG.
- When on a limp happy passive table, its bad to limp monster premium hands in late position, because your going to be in a 7, 8 handed hand postflop, with about a 39% to 49% chance to be outflopped, and only about a 5% to 10% to 13% chance to get paid off, have your bad limp bailed out.
GOOD:
-
When there are hyper aggressive maniacs that will bet, raise for you, pay your limp trap monster premium hands off.
-
When have lots of limpers in front, and when blinds are smaller, and when low RFI, and when limp happy passive, it can be good to limp in a wide marginal hand range in late position to monster hand mine.
-
When on, at the nittiest table, against the nittiest players in poker history, when there is about a 99% chance everyone fold, even when you limp in a monster premium hand, that is a good spot to limp a monster premium hand in early position.
Limping overall is usually bad. There are exceptions that only come into play about 5% to 10% to 15% to 20% of the time. Also limping in bad spots, situations, is often a good way to limp, slowplay, min bet, win the minimum, fail to extract value, and limp, slowplay, minbet, lose the maximum.
I, others have lost a LOT almost all the time when we limp, slowplay, etc, in very bad spots to do so.
I, others, usually win a lot a lot of times, when we have done so in good spots, situations.
I am speaking from 19 years of experience, studying, playing, coaching, getting coached, mentoring, getting mentored, etc, here.
And this true info has caused me, others to win a lot of both real money, and play chips at sites like Replay, etc.
I agree with some of your points. I just think you are underestimating its usefulness. If you lose alot from limping then you are not understanding the exploit. No im not limping monsters, and no im not limping against maniacs i dont agree with you there, im merely taking the advantage of limping marginal hands that can mature into the nuts from any position, because everyones limp range is wide and weak, and post flop people will often just donk around.
Is this strategy a large part of my game? No of course not, its just alot of players think you need to limp less because limping is generally bad, but if people are not raising preflop at the frequency they should then the solution is to limp more than you normally would because you will not get punished for seeing the flop, and post flop people are usually not playing correctly allowing you to see cards you normally shouldnt.
It’s not that cut and dry most of the time your betting will tell you where you’re at, especially if you get your opponent heads up. Multiway pots are the main problem on replay.
Continuing the discussion from Don't Limp:
I have found winning the cutoff just now that there is a fine balance between limping and not limping. There is no clear answer for replay poker due to the variances and variables of the players and the game type. If you are playing a GTO game, you either fold or bet that is how it goes in an on opened pot. Facing a raise things get a little bit more difficult. Facing a 3 bet even more difficult. And it goes on from there. Referencing RFI charts is your best starter for whether or not to limp a hand.
tyvm its made interesting reading for me and hopefully I will be able to digest all ty again
Good article here on limping.
5 Things You Will Never See a Poker Pro Do | BlackRain79 - Elite Poker Strategy
On this site. I tried to play poker at first. I got attacked and called names for preflop raising. Or the table quits after a couple of preflop raises. I call names back and get punished by the site. So I gave up playing poker here. Now I just drop in intermittently. When I play a hand. I limp in with all the other ‘pro’ poker players that are not poker players at all. It aint poker. Its a socializing without socializing club. An opportunity to convert your money into pixels and see how poker is not played, Yay!
Right on cue, this Upswing article popped up in my Facebook feed today. Lots of good advice on how to play against limpers. First and foremost, though, is to not open-limp yourself.