This is why ring is better than MTT?
You can’t consistently play this badly & cash up in MTT like this.
First, I don’t see what was “bad” about that particular hand. Your opponent called your 4BB raise preflop and then led with a pot-sized bet on the flop [Kh Js Qs] and you folded to his action. Perhaps you posted the wrong hand?
Second, I don’t think it’s fair to make a judgement about whether ring games are “better” (I take it that this was sarcasm) than MTTs based on low-stakes cash games. I have never played a tournament, so I can’t comment on the difference between cash and MTT, but I would never judge the quality of play in an MTT by what happens in the low-stakes games.
That said, I would agree that low-stakes cash are “bad” in the sense that there is a lot of passive and thoughtless play. By this definition, I was once a bad player and respect that it takes time to learn ABC poker, let alone the complex stuff. In any case, a lot of lower-stakes players are here for recreational purposes and don’t appear to take their game too seriously.
1 Like
Yea wrong hand. I don’t know why I posted it TBH. Hand was totally meaningless. A mistake I made. The following is the correct hand:
.replaypoker.com/hand/replay/614236905
Its an interesting hand. All I will say is there are flush draws. I rarely bother worrying about losing to a better flush, but in this hand I was extremely aware of that possibility.
A few times I’ve made bad calls with a low flush. IMO its a bad call when players show a lot of aggression & aren’t folding.
It’s a hand I would almost never play in a MTT except maybe for a bluff or squeeze. Also its a hand Im not very often playing like that in a MTT. Its also a 4 player game, but this could easily be a 6MAX & the same story plays out.
I played at the table for about an hour but made most of my chips in less than 20mins with a few decent hands. etc
Just for clarification I’m saying that my play is “bad” or the players are letting me get away with playing badly. I wouldn’t gamble like this in a MTT. This was prob 6 hands in on a new table. So I really only knew that 1 Villain at the table was full pot donk betting on flops a few times.
I’m not sure I played the turn very good? Maybe a shove? I’m open to criticism.
The point I’m mostly making is you can get away playing badly in ring games & gambling much more than in MTT.
I don’t think your play here was bad, especially 4-handed. The preflop limp is questionable. But lots of players do that in cash games, even at high stakes. Is it tighter in MTTs?
On the flop you’re getting almost 5:1 odds (with huge implied odds) to call. On the turn, the chances that someone would have a better flush are low – they would need to have two spades including one of four cards (either a 10s, Js, Ks, or As) in the deck. On the turn, you win this hand 90% of the time over the long run, according to an odds calculator.
It was pretty obvious that the one player had a Kx, but both players were oblivious to the flush. The point is, if you hit your flush, there was a good chance that at least one of these players would hand you their stack, and that’s exactly what happened. In tournaments, the pros chase flush draws routinely (when short handed), and it’s a myth that this is a “fishy” play. I say “well done” to you! After the flop, you played this hand in a profitable way.
Could you elaborate on how MTT players would not let you get away with this? My only thought is that your opponents in this situation let you see a cheap flop. A good cash game player would never let that happen.
1 Like
Mostly my point. Its mostly a raise or fold on 4MAX. I’m confident I’ll probably get away with it so I limp. You can play bad in ring a lot & it’s often extremely profitable with much lower risk than in a MTT.
Yes its rare. I think of these situations are like blockers. I think they are often irrelevant & cloud judgement. I’ve been in this situation many times & called off my stack with a low flush Vs higher. Just bc its rare doesn’t mean its not possible. I think a good player can sometimes fold a lower flush if Villain bets strong enough. Its very rare I can fold a flush on a safe board.
Although there was aggression etc the bet sizes led me to believe my flush was likely good. Deep stack Villain had Kx top pair with 2nd nut flush on the turn. Im not sure what I would do in his position. On the river I fold to 50% bet almost always pair KK 8 kicker beats very little with Vs straight/flush risk & always to my jam.
I jam river bc its rare Im beat by a better flush & figure Villain might feel committed to call.
Actually this summary is near perfect. In a MTT I’m folding 85suit. Besides the stack sizes & blinds etc making calling with 85suit bad I would presume more MTT players play better & would punish limpers. Even if the risk isn’t higher in MTT & players will play just as badly - punishment is still more costly. Getting away with this bad 85suit limp is common in ring.
To paraphrase Tolstoy, ‘all good poker players are alike; each bad poker player is bad in their own way.’
The mistakes people make playing ring games vs MTT’s are different. This is mostly due to the differences in stack depths and presence (lack) of antes. At the start of a tournament, when stacks are 100bb+ deep and antes are not in play yet, the strategy is basically the same as a ring game.
I don’t think one form of the game is better or worse than another - they are different and the mistakes people make in them are different. Cash game players tend to be better with deeper stacks and MTT players are better with shorter stacks. Know the proper strategy, identify weaknesses in other players’ approaches to the game and employ the proper counter-strategy.
4 Likes
Good summary.
Despite the fact its still NL Hold’em players really fail to understand this. I think this is generally why players do poorly outside of their chosen speciality.
I think MTT players are not willing to gamble enough in ring. Ring players are probable overly willing to gamble too often in MTT. OFC continuously gambling in MTT or ring is a sure way to go broke. There are so many lucrative opportunities to gamble like this in ring games & win big, its crazy.
1 Like
This is interesting to hear because its nearly the exact opposite way the games are most profitably played. You can be a total nit in ring games (especially 9-handed) and make money. You get to wait for spots and then take a shot. In MTT’s, the blinds escalate and you don’t have unlimited time to accumulate chips. In turbo MTT’s, the number of opportunities you will get is extremely limited. As a result, successful players understand the need to take marginal spots and gamble it up more.
If this is the way people are playing, just take the opposite approach. In turbo MTT’s, I don’t place much value on protecting my tournament life. In a slow-format MTT like the WSOP Main event, sure. If I have plenty of time to look for better spots, that’s one thing. In a turbo online game or a live daily casino tournament, that’s another thing entirely. I’m looking for any sufficiently profitable spot because I understand that the perfect spot may never come.
2 Likes