Re-raising preflop to improve equity

Replay Poker Poker Strategy
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When you are also uncomfortable going to the flop with a weak hand against 1 or 2 players, we will have made significant progress!

A big part of this is environmental: you aren’t playing in the rarefied air of the nosebleed stakes, where the pocket protected accountants vie to wring every last decimal place from their theoretical winrates. You’re thrashing it out with blue-haired cat grannies and retired factory workers who think that GTO was a muscle car from the late 1960s.

In this environment, you will have to raise an amount that makes it counter-productive. Even if you do, it will work exactly 2 times before people start calling you, and it ends up costing you way more than it returns in the long run.

I don’t need you (or anyone else) to agree with me. There are many ways to approach this silly game, my perspective isn’t the only one! I’m having fun talking about it though, so there’s that.

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SPG, I -am- uncomfortable going to the flop with a weak hand even against 1 player, hence this discussion.

Your comments about the playing environment make perfect sense and, quite likely, destroy whatever logic or maths might lay behind playing speculative hands under my circumstances. I do like to think that the upper echelons of RP play more “realistically” for want of a better word and maybe this discussion will be relevant when I get there :slight_smile:

I’m must say though, that I’m happy if the consenus is “don’t play silly hands” - I’ve learned a lot already and thoroughly enjoy talking about poker - even the silly bits!

Regards,
TA

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Hi again,
I’ve not read this post in a while. The following from SPG is a pretty good (basic winning) summary. Honestly I don’t think much could be added. KISS and you will do great at these stakes even whilst drinking & ignoring unavoidable bad luck.

It feels like your trying to create 3D chess & overthinking it. It was funny in Big Bang but not realistic in any way. Chess is a great game as is. So too basic ABC poker is all thats needed for the average player. If your some kind of super genius or Tom Dwan you can start over-analysing, making ridiculous plays & exploiting preflop. This requires you to play the flop/turn/river like a genius too though.

Poker is a gamble so dont blame luck for losing. Also dont expect to drastically alter luck & narrow/define hand ranges by raising before the flop. Also personally I think its best to define the playing field: Med stakes 500/1k & 9PLY. Personally I think it important bc exploitation works better than GTO MED stakes free poker IMO.

Low stakes poker is often an investment opportunity in stupidity. Some players will play any two, and make the stupidest calls. Calling on paired & suited boards with the bottom end of a gut shot is just another day in the office. Nothing you do preflop will alter the pervasive stupidity of players that want to see a flop & more.

I’ve very little problem turning a good profit at 500/1k 9PLAY playing 2 tables for a few hours. OFC I have lost it all very quickly occasionally bc of bad luck & not playing great & probably made a bad read encouraged by alcohol. It’s poker & there is still risk/gamble. I just play basic ABC poker and do good.

Don’t over think it: ABC basic TAG poker with some exploitative play will win truck loads. Know/understand what works & stick to it. I remember once whilst playing I thought I should slow play more bc I remember winning truck loads doing so. Great against Agro Nuts mostly pointless and losing chips against passive calling stations. (I was slow playing much less. It was a weakness TRUE, but mid game epiphany?.. nah mid hand new strat go for slow play)

Improving equity is more important regarding strong hands & premium.

Regarding the bad play & min raises: you can reduce this by check raising them often etc, but does it really accomplish anything? I will do it if I can get away with it. These min raises are not overly meaningful and should just be tolerated.

If your concerned about how often your getting river BUT more importantly win/loss on the river. I would suggest analysing and adjusting your post flop play. Preflop ABC is very basic & easy. If u play ABC preflop it will never be a significant factor in your losses overall.

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@DogsOfWar

Thank you very much and all of it is very sound advice!

It certainly seems to be that ABC works just fine at 500/1k even, as you said, when the demon drink gets involved :slight_smile:) … providing one actually plays ABC whilst under the influence!!! <— I have a bad habit of making other players very, very happy when I’m playing drunk!

All of the responses have helped me and kept me examining my game and I’m very grateful for this discussion!

Yes - this is the one! As I said, or tried to say, earlier, these players are the reason for my question - just trying to find another way to exploit them. Strong hands and a sensible betting strategy work just fine but there’s always this nagging sense of having left money on the table when I fold something like 96s or even 86s and they take their random 2 cards to the river for the win.

I think, what I’ve got from the discussion so far, it is pointless trying to exploit these people with marginal and speculative hands. Because they play (nearly) any two cards and “flop and fit”, I may be able to narrow the field (no guarantee on that) but I’m not going to get their stack in the middle often enough for it pay off.

So, with many thanks to everyone, I might follow SPGs advice of just limping behind every once in a while but otherwise fold and forget.

And, it must be said, there’s such good advice on fairly basic play that has come out here that there are much more profitable parts of my game that I can and should and will be concentrating on!

Regards,
TA

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@theanalyst01

It’s certainly possible that genius/Einstein/Dwannnnnnn exploits preflop are possible BUT so rare & and comparatively low value that its like trying to beat the house at BlackJack. You’ll get so much more value from flop, turn & river ABC poker play.

Some very minor preflop adjustment can be made at these low stakes but it wont drastically alter profit/loss at these stakes especially regarding LowEq or SpecHands. I’ve experimented a little & Im sure better players have too more successfully. ABC wins hands down easy.

Learning to play consistently makes drunk poker easy & automatic. Even drunk Im not calling off most/all my stack drawing with low pocket pairs or gut shots something RP numpties pay off with.

Also playing a wider hand range means you need better judgement/skill whilst playing (flop, turn, river) & particularly calling/defending. You will also play significantly more, resulting in more decisions & pressure. KISS & apply the pressure to opponents with better hands.

Agree: there is so much value in limping with some speculative hands and finding a flop worth playing for MAX value. I often see it all go in with no or min preflop raises. I often RP to see how was it possible?

It $ hard to ju $ tify but it $ worth it & pay $ $ tupidly. Limp some low equity hands like suited 1gaps (J9, 57, 108) K/Q suited or LowPockPair that flop or draw strong/NutFlush n sets/showdown or some raises could include. These hands are a lil risky often with poor kickers trips is hard to fold Vs action/better hands etc. I try to avoid these situations & usually dont play LowEq speculative hands in 9max but sometimes you will need to.

The worst players AKA calling stations are the only players that dont play with regret. Forget & fold but dont regret only learn Yoda says…

I fold & almost refuse to play 27 almost religiously. You will miss Big Pots & even great hands folding crappy cards FTW. That’s poker. Any 2 can win but they lo$e more before they get there.

I have folded cards that make quads OR a straight flush OR insane POTS like every other player has. That’s poker. Your should only regret playing badly & NOT folding crap & apparent failure to get lucky.

RP free poker adds the challenge of an alternative poker strategy. RP players are really bad & exploitable. Stick to ABC-RP and remember to exploit easy-peasy.

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You can raise hands like 86s because you also raise your premium hands. You win chips through fold equity either preflop if other players limp fold garbage or postflop if other players limp call garbage and don’t hit the board often enough. Your opponents will think you have a hand like AA or KK. Against calling stations, raising 86s is a bad idea.

The question is which hands are good for bluff raising. A2-5s are good for bluffing as they can fold out hands that dominate them, block AA, AK, and AQ, and have good straight and flush potential. Raising only A2-5s gives you bad board coverage - if there is an ace, it is obvious you have a hand - so other hands should be raised preflop and can profitably bluff boards that have an ace. Hands like 64s can also give you disguised 2-pair and straight potential and the pairs that it hits usually aren’t dominated by better kickers, so they can be bluff-raised.

However, the main thing with raising these speculative hands is that you need to know when to bluff and when not to bluff. Sometimes, you have to run big bluffs and barrel multiple streets to get sticky top pairs with weak kickers to fold. However, you also have to be weary of slow-played 2 pairs and sets when running big bluffs. This is especially tricky in multiway pots.

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@aoeu, more great advice, I really appreciate your time!

You’ve hit the nail again - sticky players and multi-way pots. My hand reading skills certainly need a lot of work but I’ve never been scared to bluff in a 3 way pot - you seem to be inclined to push the envelope quite a bit further than I do at the moment! I will have to work on that :slight_smile:

Although I don’t keep notes on my play, I have a very strong belief that my bluff wins outweigh my losses. The problem is that getting down to even a 3 way pot is so difficult!

There is a player that I keep an eye on who solves this problem with very aggressive raises both pre- and post-flop. There’s a few reasons that I like this play, saved for a another discussion!, but he is very much disparaged as a “bully” by some of my friends. This particular player is on a mission to hit the number 1 ranking and doesn’t really care about having friends or “playing nicely” - he’s playing to win and, mostly, doing fairly well - still a long, long way from the top but his bankroll is growing very nicely nearly every day.

No-one is going to call me a “bully” if I raise a premium hand, everyone knows “that’s what you do”, and so they all fold to a big raise and I take the limpers stakes and the blinds. It seems that getting caught raising big with an airball or a speculative hand is where the problem lays! Apparently it’s “just not poker” to bluff!

Ignoring my obviously stupid example at the start of the discussion, you and others make the point that even a more sensible hand doesn’t play well in a multi-way pot and the consensus seems to be that raising preflop with a hand that I want to play is somewhere between “not wrong” and “absolutely correct”. So, that has answered my question, thank you very much to everyone!

Common advice, although based on real cash games, is to raise 2.5 or 3BB + 1BB for each limper. I hope we all agree that limping with (nearly) any 2 is the default play at the lower levels where I play so that advice says that I should anticipate the limpers if I’m playing UTG and raise to about 10BB at a 9 seat table and back off or, even more likely!, increase until I’m regularly getting only 1 or 2 callers. I have no doubt that if I’m playing on the button that advice will still result in at least a 10BB raise.

For those of you who remember or maybe still play the low stakes (500/1k) tables, is there a way to “play to win” without alienating the rest of the players? My thoughts at the moment are that I have to just limp in when I’m playing with my friends, “hit or fold” and take the losses. As far as playing with non-friends, it seems that table talk is very unusual so I can’t mitigate my “aggression” with some friendly chit-chat.

Thanks again!

Regards,
TA

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@DogsOfWar, thanks for your advice, it’s very much appreciated … I actually have a starting hand chart that I created for the sole purpose of drunk play lmao!!! Ridiculously tight but it takes all the troublesome decision making out of the equation - hit or fold! The obvious problem is that my confidence rises in direct proportion to my BAC so I don’t know I need the chart until immediately after I’ve shoved all-in with 9-2o for no apparent reason!

Regards,
TA

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You are trying to take their chips, they are trying to take yours. I don’t cut my friends any slack, and don’t expect them to cut me any. That’s just the nature of the game. If losing some free chips alienates them, they weren’t friends to begin with.

As a tournament player, I understand there is only 1 winner. If everyone else is alienated, well… that’s on them, not me. it’s not personal, don’t take it personally.

Still, this is supposed to be a social site. I almost always chat at tables, even when people tell me to shut up. Some people chat back, some don’t. Some people speak English, some don’t. Some people call me, “Studmuffin” right away, some only call me that after several years. Try to be fun and upbeat and people will talk to you eventually. Here’s a few good icebreakers to try…

When you win a big pot with a junk hand, say, “That’s right, whos yer daddy?” People love this one!

When you suck out on the river, say, “Pure skill, I assure you!” or “It’s all in the wrist.”

If yer bored between hands, say whatever comes to mind, like, “I love the way Jello jiggles” or “I love pizza,” or “I hate clown shoes” or literally anything.

But the one thing you should NEVER do is whine when you lose a hand. Never. Nobody wants to hear it. Suck it up, Buttercup and say NH, even if you don’t mean it.

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SPG? You win!

Clever, good advice and great humour in one very short post … Well played Sir!

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The beauty of poker is that there are an almost infinite number of ways to play. Some players can limp-call with every hand and others will play super tight-aggressive with only the strongest 5% of hands. Any individual decision comes down to stack depth, ICM, opponent tendencies, position, pot odds etc. So, even something that seems simple like labeling your pre-flop equity share is not straightforward when there could be calls, 3-bets, or multiple players involved.

It’s good to play hands you’re comfortable with in each particular situation (and as you say, certain hands force you to make more difficult decisions than others whether you are drunk or not). So, just because a chart says you should play 75s from the button, don’t do it if you know the BB is always going to call and you don’t know how you’re going to play postflop. It’s always a good idea to have a plan for how you’re going to play before you decide whether to play. Do you have a hand that is likely to have showdown value? Are you going to have to semi-bluff a lot of the time. And, you can really be successful even if you just decide not to get involved with marginal hands in marginal spots.

I started playing with friends again recently after not playing for a year or two, and I noticed a leak that came from playing a wide range of hands (like I would have two years ago), but then not having a plan and just giving up when I had already invested a lot in the pot. I did better by just tightening up and looking at EV calculators off the table to regain that comfort level with more marginal hands. Playing 86s or really any two cards can be highly profitable if you know what you are doing. The best ~5 players on Replay play aggressively with 80% of starting hands because they have a huge skill advantage. So, in my opinion the width of your range should be inverse of your skill. If you are just starting, stick to raising TT+, AJ+ and play straightforward, and expand from there. On Replay, you do need to raise big to avoid multi-way pots and actually get folds, so that favors playing a stronger range (because everyone calls too much), but if you are comfortable post-flop any range can be successful.

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@JoeDirk

Sound arguments. I’ve bet ridiculous hands like 46 suited 9MAX ring in early position winning huge pots on tables & against players that let me get away with it. My favourite hands are 45 & 56 suited but Im very rarely if ever playing them on 9MAX. These hands Vs some of the decent players are not profitable most of the time from my experience. Most of the time you will miss & from my experience bluffing on a 9MAX will be too often met with a combination of decent players & hands that hit often enough to make it -EV.

Playing marginal hands will make post flop play often tricky & difficult. Totally agree 100%. I dont want to often be playing really tough decisions in inflated pots with marginal hands.

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@theanalyst01

I think the general point of this thread was a few things from what you said:

  • Similar to the old poker saying: punish the limpers, we do want to punish bad play preflop.

  • Try to out play other players preflop in some kind of deep psychological mental battle with marginal hands.

A lot of what JoDirk said was very good advice & similar to SPGs advice: KISS.

The limping & min raising, 1BB bet into pots etc is irritating as is getting rivered by extremely optimistic calls or ridiculous bluffs that suck out. This kind of play should be mostly tolerated and punished with some stronger starting cards.

The more hands or wider range of starting hands you play the more difficult decisions you will face & more skill you will require to play post flop & the more opportunities you have to make a mistake. Most of your chips will be won/lost post flop.

It seems like your trying to implement a complicated counter strategy thats probably getting you in more trouble than you were previously getting in.

I would either tighten your range or simplify & only look to 3bet preflop with strong hands & focus on post flop play. Most of your chips will be won/loss post flop.

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Thanks very much @JoeDirk, I really appreciate your advice!

Had the discussion taken a different direction, I most certainly would be experimenting but when the very much more knowledgeable players advise against it, I would be an even greater fool to ignore their advice!

@DogsOfWar, yes, I definitely believe in punishing the limpers and that is the motivation behind my original question.

I certainly don’t have the post flop playing skills to play literally any 2 cards profitably so I was looking for hands that might be playable, by me, that are chosen more strategically than 2 random numbers. The discussion is that these hands probably don’t exist given my skill level.

I’m ok with that! There’s plenty of other things that have been discussed that I should work on and that is where my thoughts and concentration will go for the time being.

I do think that I will come back, eventually, to ideas similar to the original question but not until after I have gained substantially more knowledge and experience. I was certainly trying to run before I could walk this time and it’s great that people were so kind in the way they told me that :slight_smile:

I really want to thank all of the great minds that have contributed and helped me a great deal in this discussion.

Regards,
TA

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In this environment, how, exactly, do you intend to punish the limpers?

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Experimenting is a good thing, and even losing a lot could help you win in the long run. I think it’s just a matter of experience and math to figure out what hands you want to play in a particular situation. You can use some calculators (like Equilab’s free equity trainer) to see how your hand is going to flop on different board textures for practice to help think through what you would do at the table.

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I do believe it depends on the table (as said before) what kind of style is best. But I also do believe that there are some principles that can be applied to EVERY table.

Playing Poker is like going to war for 2 reasons:

  1. No Battle plan survives the first bullet.
  2. A battle plan, that can’ t be altered is a bad plan.
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You forgot #3. “The enemy gets a vote, too.”

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I agree that you need to be able to change your plan, but it’s also key to start with a plan. So many people just go, my hand is ok let’s see a flop, but it is important to think about how you are going to win with a specific hand in a specific situation before getting involved.

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Thanks again @JoeDirk, you have summed up the entire purpose of my question!

I haad an idea but I needed to know if it was workable and, if so, how it can be worked.

Absolutely perfect!

Regards,
TA