I’ve seen too many ppl overbet hands, yet when you have a monster you really can’t waste it, you need to get paid. With no hand history… then,
Overbet and Semi-bluff/Bluff is logically what V is doing.
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blinds 100/200
preflop…everyone limps
postflop…checks to 1otb who minraises
Button shoves, table folds
For starters, I’m not crazy about your preflop limp. You’re going to be in a rough spot if the small blind or big blind raise, and a small pocket pair will be very vulnerable to overcards going five ways to the flop, unless you hit your one-in-eight chance of making a set. Raise it up (I’d probably go about 5-6x given the earlier limpers) and get some folds.
Edit… looks like you’re sitting on about 15BB at the start of this hand. You might want to consider jamming or folding here. When you limp yourself, you barely have the implied odds of making your set.
On the flop, I like the jam. Before the minraise, you’re looking at a pot of 5BB; your bet is effectively a 2x-pot overbet (5BB + 1BB bet + 1BB to call = 7 BB in the pot; your jam is about 13.5BB). This connected board can bring a lot of scary turns and rivers - any 3, 4, 8, or 9 (16 cards!) will leave four cards to a straight out there. By overbet-jamming here, you’ll deny a lot of your opponents’ equity when they’re holding one of these cards themselves. If they have a made straight, you’ll still have decent equity yourself, since pairing the board will give you a boat, and could dramatically slow down the action and possibly result in a fold.
In order to balance out your range, what other holdings might you jam here that would have limped preflop?
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On the button, preflop, ahead of 2 limpers, with 2 players to bet, I’m playing all pocket pairs, suited connectors, and of course, all premium hands. I’m hesitant to raise here, because i want to get an idea as to what the blinds are doing. I really hate giving the blinds a free ride when i’m on a small pair, but i’m folding if i miss on the flop. If I raise, and they call, I’m still IP. so your advice makes sense.
Anything but 3 to a straight, or a suited board and i’m checking the flop, but as is, I’m pushing 55, 66, 77, 34s, 56s, 67s. Maybe 88. anything higher gets a preflop raise. 89 gets a value bet.
I still have a lot to learn about ranges, position, and SPR. I start to lose prospective as the number of players get below 5.
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No wonder you got no calls: you’re not bluffing nearly enough. Why should anyone call with A7o, or overpairs, when your entire jam range here (except maybe 88) has them beat? You’ve got 17 confirmed value hands, plus six “maybe” value hands. Let’s say you’ll play 88 like this 2/3 of the time, for a weighted average of 21 value hands.
The bigger your bet relative to the pot, the more bluffs you need to work into your range. With a 2x pot overbet, about 40% of your range should be bluffs, or 14 total hands. Assuming you’d limp them preflop, I like 9To (12 combos) here as bluffs, as they block made straights, but can make the nuts with an 8. Add in Ah4h and Ah8h, and there are your 14 bluff hands.
Another thing to consider is that if you’re jamming any time you have the top end of your range (basically, 2 pair or better), what does it mean when you just call? You want to work some of the hands you outlined into a calling range, and correspondingly decrease the number of hands you’re bluffing with. Otherwise you become way too exploitable with your calls, and it’ll make your decisions very dicey when facing check-raises, or aggression on later streets.
Been reading and rereading your posts, which bring up so many questions, I have to spread them out in order to not appear i’m rambling.
This has been quite the journey. Playing less hands was a biggie. Not limping very often was another. Add to that things like the realization that people who’s whole strategy is to rely on that lucky river are simply not in my league*, curbing my ‘glass half full’ impulse, and finally admitting i’m really not psychic, have improved my game.
My next goal is to learn small ball, at least for tournaments. (what i use to call playing not to lose), Can this strategy be incorporated in my range construction?
Another quick question is about instincts. Sometimes I can just feel that I have the table on it’s heels, or i’ve gotten into someone’s head. Right now, that’s where almost all of my bluffs come from. I amaze myself with how often i bluff, and how seldom i get caught. (maybe 1 in 20). Sometimes it’s like the whole table is just waiting for a reason to fold. I seldom plan to bluff, but sometimes it just seems right, in the moment. Is this one of those things that is gonna bite me in my assets when i start playing with a more experienced group?
I have more questions, but want to do a little research to be able to articulate just what i want to ask, and not just ramble.
*My point is, if i feel i’m a better player than someone, and they affect the way i play, who do i blame? I mean, except Replay. example: In an SnG from a couple of hours ago, I call a shove with 2 pr. The guy hits a J on the river, for a bigger 2 pr., and i’m a 9th place finisher. I simply said “I’ll be back”, in my best Arnold Schwarzenegger voice, and started a new table. The table fills, and early on, I isolate Mr. ‘Show me the door with a rivered J’, hide my set until he shoves on me, and take all his chips. This gives me a springboard to take the tourney.
Ok, I lied. I do ramble.
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You want to get caught bluffing, mainly in front of the people that will most likely make the final table, This is your Ace in the hole with the big & bad solid players. Get Caught in Public to make the bigger plays near the final push! INSTINCT MATTERS !
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I don’t understand this sentiment, which has been echoed by a number of players here.
You are going to have the nuts, or even just strong value hands, WAY less often than you have air. When bluffing is part of your game, it’s very easy to over-bluff. I’d much rather get “caught” with strong value hands and have opponents over-fold to my bets, giving me uncontested pots. This is doubly true in tournaments, when getting a single bluff called can kill or cripple your stack with no ability to reload.
Why would we want to show bluffs and make it more likely for opponents to call us down in the future?
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I have no idea who wrote this.
I never bluff. I always got it.
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Whether its showing or getting caught bluffing,
There’s always +FV (future value) in showing the total bluff with like 2-3off.
Think of it as a 7-2 bonus. Most of those, the winner gets everyone else to fold, with nothing ( or near nothing ), which tells the table you have the capacity to make that move , the willingness, and can complete it sucessfully.
When you play mainly against the same ppl, they all prolly have seen “that move” of yours before… but when you aren’t playing those ppl, you have to establish table presence and what your ranges are. I think thats kinda where Juicee was going, you have to bluff just enough to get paid when you need to down the line.
Its often been said, its all about the story you tell. In order to not get read like a cheap romance novel, just write all different kinds of stories …just make them best-sellers.
Sassy
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This is exactly what I’m disputing. I think that showing a bluff with 2-3off is -FV, and provided my rationale.
You’ll have the ability to bluff with air far more often than you have the nuts. If you do expand beyond obvious bluff candidates to include some random garbage hands, then you’ll be bluffing way too much. When your opponents think you always have the nuts and fold in response to your aggression, that’s a very good thing. You’ll end up winning way more in the long run than if your opponents always call you down, particularly when you bluff too much.
Coder,
You bluff more than I do apparently, but look @ this from a range building database program. As it loggs your play, its continually building/updating your ranges. You won’t get credit for limp’n AA, untill you do it AND its proven that you did that. Just like you won’t get credit for opening action with crap, then bluffing all 3 streets, untill you do that and its proven you did that. Once it builds up a sufficient # of hands, it starts more focusing on likelyhood of you limping AA or in what posistions do you limp AA.
Against players you haven’t seen… you start with a 0 hand history on them. Those players also are building one on you. Since players can adjust play each R.table/SnG/MTT, you could be starting from scratch vs a specific player each time.
Lets say your on a table, and no matter what you do… when you bet with a quality hand… ppl just insta-fold. If noone will call you , you’re not maximizing value, so you have to bet like normal, everyone folds, then you show complete garbage so that in the future you get a few callers more often.
Same holds true if noone takes you to showdown on your quality hands, they you almost go outta your way to show the table, you’re just kill’n it… by showing your made hand, so ppl know your kill’n it… and not bluff’n all the time.
Remember Coder, I said … if you’re playing ppl who already know how you play, this is not necessary, but against unknown ppl… its almost like you have to train them. If you think I’m a tight player and I wanna chg your opinion, best way to show that is show a bluff.
I agree totally that giving away free information, in general, is a bad idea.
But Juicee has a point too, if that player that you made lay down a good hand, for a chunk of chips say lvl 4 to a bluff, ends up on final table against you lvl 11… you want them to still remember that hand, and push you with a strong hand even tho there are bigger hands, 1 of which you have and crush them with.
Sassy
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I hope you know Sir, this means war!!! I will be doing some trash talking & calling you out from this link Mr. Coder, or can I call you Wanna?
BB checks. UTG shoves
table folds back to me.
AcXc, KcXc, and JcXc beats me, but…
Is there any way i don’t make this call?
I’m not sure what your position is here. In ring, I’m definitely calling. In a tournament, if I care about the points or a cash, I’m folding. 
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If you watched the hand, you’re seeing V shove with 2 pr, having a red QTo, in the hole. I was ahead when i called, but fell behind when the board turned a T. This is a common occurrence for me, and a big reason for all the 9th, 8th, and 7th, SnG finishes. Seems like i have either a 1-3, or 7-9 finishes, with very few in between. Hands like this are probably the reason. Still, if people are gonna shove with 2 pr. on a flushed or 4 to straight boards, shouldn’t they be punished? Suck outs are gonna happen, but I gotta think i’m winning this hand 5 out of 6 times. Plus, people gotta know i’m not gonna fold to an inferior hand just because I have to put my stack in the middle.
On the other hand…I fold, forget the hand ever happened, and i wait in the tall grass for a chance to use skill, instead of luck, to win some chips.
I’m still on the fence with this one.
Its obvious he was trying to get his chips in with top pair or 2 pairs and wanted a fold by everyone to avoid seeing the flush. It looks like this is the beginning of a sit n go or MTT but whether its rings or tourneys thats a tough one but im betting 1/3 to 1/2 pot if im him and check/folding if a club on turn hits and i dont hit the boat. Your other option was to try and bet him off his 2 pairs with that flush draw board instead of checking but i think he still calls and the results are the same. IMO you both made close to the correct moves but if im flopping a flush holding 97 then im betting a good amount, maybe 1/3 to 1/2 stack and not checking, if he raises u all in u still call. That hand was basically a heads up coin flip. If i was him i woulda bet the same 1/3 to 1/2 pot as you coulda and you call but if no club shows on turn then im shoving if im you IMO but if im you I might bet half pot before allowing someone else to shove knowing hes prob got 2 pairs and no club. Another player prob folded a much higher club on the draw but didnt wanna chance a knockout in 1st blind level of a tourney. You have the made hand on the flop, gotta go for it there hopefully betting off a higher draw too. Getting to heads up was the best you could hope for there. Also depends on if you know the player or have played and seen him play several times. Dont think those minor changes woulda changed the outcome tho but you both played that as well or almost as well as u coulda.
Call unless you have a specific read that V is only ever shoving the nuts. Yes, V can have a bigger flush but can also have baby flushes, 2pair, a set, maybe also something like AcXx or KcJx. You’re ahead of most of their range. They’ll have equity so you’ll lose sometimes but most likely you’re miles ahead here.
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thanks much for your responses. It’s weird playing 2 game strategies . I’d like to think I’d make the same decisions, playing for chips that cost me pennies, or when the picture on the bill i’m putting in the middle, is president Grant. Not having buckets of money at my disposal, we know that’s not true, but validation is still nice.
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