Ring game, 6max, effective stacks 100bb.
LJ opens 3bb, HJ calls, BTN folds.
Hero is in SB with 10d10s.
Assume both villains are standard, reasonably competent regs. Should we mostly…
A) call
B) raise to 9bb
C) raise to 15bb
and why?
If the players are strong , I call. Raise of 3bb is already a big raise, and raising more would risk giving an indication of the strength of my hand
1 Like
D) Raise 20bb
it really depends on your strat, but I rather win the pot on the spot.
1 Like
Villains are a bit wider than SB so we should try to make one them fold and remember the BB is still behind. Let’s get Ax, Kx outta here. 9bb would probably do it heads-up, but if BB or LJ calls, HJ gets pot odds so maybe 15bb. Assuming competent opponents, they will take a re-raise from SB seriously. I definitely would not flat this. The last thing that we want is a 3 or 4 handed flop. It’s a re-raise for sure.
Pot on Hero’s action is 7.5bb. A 3-bet to 9 would make 16bb. If the BB calls the pot is 24, so 6 into 24 is a pretty easy call. If BB folds and LJ calls, then pot would be 22 and still a pretty easy call.
I’ll go with 15bb.
1 Like
@napkin_holder this is the way <3
Thanks, but the only problem is, it took me 10 mins to figure it out. : P
1 Like
I reraise TT to 17x preflop. 17x because TT out of position in a multi way bloated up pot, is not good. 17x insures either only 1 caller, or pick up 7.5 bb pot preflop. Also as long as flop is Jxx, Qxx, and not Kxx, not Axx, then 1 caller, likely has 77, 88, 99, JJ, AQ suited, AK off, so if Jxx, Qxx, can cbet 2/5 pot, because more likely hits your 3 bet 17x range, and misses their likely calling range. Dont want to check, not cbet flop because if check flop, if they cbet, they could be doing so on a semi bluff under pair that worse then TT, and if call, they also fire turn, and have to fold turn to a possible, probable semi bluff, so to avoid that gona need to cbet 2/5ths pot on Jxx, Qxx flops. If board hits Kxx, then check/fold, delay cbet turn 2/5th. If flop comes Axx, check/fold to river, and only bet 1/3 on river if they give up, check river.
Also 17x 3 bet preflop helps define what up against. If they call, your likely ahead unless they calling with JJ, or flat call trapping with QQ to AA(unlikely). If they have QQ to AA, AK suited, they will probably 4 bet. Thus a 4 bet, and your likely beat, and should either fold, or if tiny 4 bet, maybe can call. If they flat call, your likely ahead.
While a 17x 3 bet and 2/5 cbet postflop puts about 33x, 1/3 of your 100 bb stack at risk, that’s better then not defining their range and because of that losing your whole stack to JJ to AA on a xxx little card board.
If the flop is xxx little cards, and you bet, and they reraise or go all in, your still probably ahead and can probably semi rightly call, because if they have QQ to AA, they would have likely 4 bet preflop, instead of flat calling 17x 3 bet preflop.
So 3 betting to 17x preflop, and cbetting 2/5 on flop, if flop is either xxx lower cards then J, or Jxx, Qxx, and check/fold Kxx, Axx, is the right play. 73% to 93% of time, this play will work over the long term, and even if it doesn’t your likely only going to lose about 30% of stack, if it doesnt work, if your behind, beat, bluffed, etc.
You all realize your advocating for turning tens into a bluff right?
I usually find myself thinking with protection/denial as a primary motivation too, but I’m trying stop, because this is never the main reason we should be betting.
Of course tens benefits a ton from players folding out overcards, but we still make more money on average when both players call. There’s a lot of variations where something like this happens: board comes A high, we c-bet small, LJ folds KQ, HJ folds pocket 5’s. Don’t forget, if they both have overcards to the ten, they’re likely blocking some of each other’s outs too.
We should be 3-betting to 15bb, because that should be our 3-bet size in this spot (give or take a bb or two), and tens are strong enough to 3-bet.
Fold equity is something we should definitely consider when comparing 3-bet to call, but if you knew both opponents were always calling no matter what, raise would still be better than call right?
(Sorry for the mini rant - it’s to remind myself to try and think like this as much as anything, but hopefully it’s somewhat useful to someone else too)
1 Like
Not advocating bluff. This is pre-flop. We’re not stealing. We’re isolating. AA has a 42-ish % (or something) chance to win at showdown 4-handed (the BB is ALSO still in the hand!). How bad do you think TT’s chances are 4-handed?
If we raise to 9bb and the BB calls, suddenly the other two have pot odds and we have a pot of 36bb and a stack of 91. Then if we don’t flop a T, first to act our lovely hand becomes a check-fold. Or how many streets do you want to barrell 4-handed with a stack less than 3 times the flop pot size? Also, three Villains means three times the chances that someone bluff jams an overcard on the turn of something. Or are you ready to do that yourself when they all called 9x pre? If someone here doesn’t fold we could have a tire fire on our hands.
Right, but it’s chance to win vs the size of the pot.
eg When you have aces 4-handed, the best possible outcome preflop is for you to go all in and everyone to call. You will actually lose 58% the time, but you win 3 stacks the rest of the time. Your chances of winning decrease with the amount of people who call, but your average winnings increase.
If you’re betting and the primary reason is to get people to fold, how are you not bluffing?
Well then we’re not bluffing any more than we ever are pre-flop. If you say that this is bluffing and that we shouldn’t be bluffing, then logically extending that argument we should be limp-calling with anything fairly strong (or at the most min-raising) to keep everyone in. Of course, we know that that is a losing strategy.
Re-raising to 15x is an ill-advised bluff, but jamming to build a pot is an optimal play?
Your own recommendation is:
But somehow the exact same play that I chose is not a bluff but a value bet just because I’d prefer to make someone (not all) fold and you want the money in?
A bluff means I want EVERYONE to fold. I don’t. Just 1 or 2 Villains. I want isolation, which is the prime motivation pre-flop. Unless you’re Phil Ivey ‘get the money in’ is strictly a post-flop move. The hand can change far to radically from pre to flop than on any other street. The reason why so many noobs whine that their AA gets sucked out is because they slow play it pre. Slow playing and value bets are for TPTK and up and no one EVER has that yet pre. Regardless of our pocket, pre-flop we must fold or isolate - thin that herd.
Calling it a bluff, ok, but it’s just semantics.
The things 3 betting to TT to 17x does, and why do it, is it DEFINES the villain opponent range. IF 1,2 callers flat call they likely have 66,77,88,99,JJ,AQ suited, AK off, and only 1 hand out of 7 beats you, and even if beat you, can semi bluff that 1 hand, JJ out postflop, depending on flop.
If get 4 bet, the likely range is QQ to AA, AK suited.
3 betting TT DEFINES range, opponent hands, what opponent has.
And as Napkin said 3 betting TT to ISOLATE.
Also it’s not a bluff, it’s a MERGED semi bluff, and value 3 bet, because your both 3 betting to extract more value, and in case your beat your semi bluffing.
A bluff would be if 3 bet to 17x on hands like A5 suited, K9, Q9, JT, 22,33,44,55
When 3 bet 17x with a hand like maybe 88, and 99,TT, and maybe JJ, it’s semi bluffing.
Also Lihuie in tournament play, this is the right move, because it defines opponent range, and it isolates, and it can extract more value, and helps to not bust out of a tournament.
In cash games, where there is no tournament survival, life, considerations, what your saying is right. In tournaments, your ok with taking 7.5 bb’s, taking a small pot, not winning a bigger pot, as long as you either don’t take a monster, semi bad RISK of busting out, or as long as you dont bust out.
This is why I bet 4/5 pot, pot, 1.5 pot in order to protect hand from draw, make a draw pay to much, which might force a fold, might take down a smaller pot, because if they fold, take down small pot, that’s better then if 2 card draw hits a semi disguised 3 card either straight or flush, and possibly bust me out, or bust me out.
That same kind of logic applies to why should 3 bet TT to 17x preflop, in a tournament. In a cash game, can and probably should either flat call with TT(low or lower frequency), 3 bet to about 12x bb.
What you said about 3 betting TT to 15 to 17 x bb, and why, if do it, etc, Lihuie applies to cash games. Your a cash game player. You rarely play tournaments.
Also Isolation is even more important in tournaments, then in cash games. Not saying isolation isnt important in cash games, as it is important. It’s just that isolation is even more important in tournaments, then it is in cash games.
We are out of postion with pocket Tens vs 2 competent regs.
We are going to have a hard time realizing our equity. (The extra EV we would get is counterfeited for the fact that we would be out of position)
Yes TT is a bluff in our range we are not trying to protect it.
There are plenty of more boards where 2 competent preflop 3 bet callers will not easily fold to a c bet.
I think @lihiue’s point is that the term “bluff” applies to any decision where we bet with the intent to make our opponent fold, rather than the hope to get called. Since y’all were emphasizing getting people to fold with your sizing, it seems you are essentially turning TT into a bluff based on this reasoning.
It’s basically a bit of positive pedantry to emphasize mindset, and I am here for it! With a hand as strong as TT, we should be raising with the mentality that there are lots of profitable scenarios that could follow. If we’re JUST focused on the idea that “opponents will mostly fold,” we can set ourselves up for failure (read: we don’t extract max value consistently) when our expectation isn’t met—if both villains call and the flop comes Ace high, for example, we may cbet less than we should because our plan was “I’ll make them fold pre so I don’t have to deal with an ace high flop.”
How can you extract max value vs 2 competent players out of position with TT?
This mentality is for people who are just clicking buttons. @napkin_holder seems to have a plan.
I’m sure @napkin_holder has a plan! I’m just speaking to the use of the phrase “turn X into a bluff.”
How can you extract max value vs 2 competent players out of position with TT?
- Range bet a favorable runout and win without showdown
- Win a medium-size pot at showdown with top pair or 2nd pair
- Win a large pot at showdown with a set
In roughly that order of frequency 
1 Like
Exactly.
Make no mistake, if we see a flop, TT is going to be thin value and worth max one street almost all the time, there’s still value in having those small pots be as large as possible.
The thing is, if we have value against one player who calls, we were likely even further ahead of the player who folded. Also, although our equity goes down with two others in the pot, our equity realization likely improves.
I think it’s fair enough to question if TT is a value 3-bet at all. Against some players it’s probably not, but I wouldn’t want to turn them into a bluff either. I’d just be calling to set mine in that case.
This. 99,TT,JJ, are FLOP VULNERABLE, between good to semi premium pocket pair, starting hands.
This is why 3 bet TT to 17x preflop:
- To Isolate
- To help define opponent hand- 66 to AA, AQs, AK, if flat call. QQ to AA, AKs if they 4 bet.
- To extract value, make speculative marginal hands pay too much to outflop flop vulnerable TT.
- To semi bluff rep a better range, set up Cbets, semi bluffs postflop, in case behind, semi beat.
- To semi protect TT.
- To only get 1, 2, or maybe even 0 callers(see point 1 above)
Last thing TT wants is to play a BIG pot OUT OF POSITION with 3,4 others also in.
The Coach I had, and Chris Ferguson’s Book, Harrington on Hold Em, Negreanu’s Videos, Polk’s Videos, Upswing Poker, J Little, etc, have DRILLED, HAMMERED these things into me, because this is the right way to play TT in this situation, spot, especially in Tournaments, Sit N Go’s.
1 Like
I totally agree. The things is that he said this right off the top:
The way that this is stated indicated that he means to say that we should be value betting TT pre-flop out of position against three Villains.
Certainly, any pre-flop betting has an element of bluff in it as that is what essentially isolation is. The way that liliue poses this question sounds like he means for us to play TT from the SB multiway as if it were 3 of a kind. We’ll then he’s an order of magnitude better player than I. ; )
1 Like