I was thinking 55-TT preflop, plus some suited connectors but not many. Don’t know what you would do with AJs or AQ here. Postflop I honestly was thinking 88-99 as flats, blocking the better end of the straight. Throw in 9/8s if you slow play that even with the flush draw on board I suppose. If I give you 44 preflop, that could peel as well. That’s about as wide as I can see it, given the action.
ADDED: Just read Taco’s comment and it makes sense. Did having the 8s influence your decision on the flop?
One of the reasons I would have folded or shoved the flop. Being sandwiched between 2 players is never fun with these types of hands. As to the 5h being good for Dayman, that’s only the case with a very small portion of his range that got past the flop. Using your own thought process, if he jams all sets on the flop, he doesn’t have many FH’s on the turn - only 6/5. The paired board also makes straight and flush draws less appealing.
Absolutely, I have an over pair to the board and I’m opened ended to the effective nuts, having 88 heavily blocks 98 and T8(if a 9 comes). I would have shoved flop if @love2eattacos had folded. With him calling I think I can have the best hand here an amount of times that’s not zero, but shoving I don’t see how a better hand ever folds with this SPR. Hence the flat. Tacos call put 3M in the pot so I’m calling 1 to win 4 so need 25% equity but with 2.6 effective behind the implied odds makes it a slam dunk call for me.
I want to reply to some of @ValueFish and @love2eattacos but pretty busy at work right now so it’ll have to wait a bit.
Sry, I meant to ask whether the 8 of spades in particular influenced your decision. Agreed on shoving if Tacos folded here.
We discussed this in another thread about a month or so ago (don’t recall which one specifically). Leading 2nd pair and a strong overcard (A or K) is a real thing at low stakes. You have to take these types of hands into consideration or you’ll be folding off way too much equity. This specific lead is more spewy than most but not by much.
Yeah, would have shove flop too (never folded though ) , but I still find it interesting to see what would be the best move turn turn, even after taking a wrong decision on the flop.
True, thanks! But would you have re-shoved turn if you would have miss clicked on the flop by unintentionally clicking the call button, for example ? Or would you have folded?
I mean, it’s horrible… I feel like I’m way too tight for this site.
But yeah, if i had been at that table, and if you just look at how V1 plays, you could quickly see he’s bad (or not that good…), and that would definitely affect my play here on the turn (i would be much looser I think). Difficult, difficult !
Yeah, at least having a back door flush draw or pair + straight draw would be a little better. Also donk betting into the LP pre flop raiser I could get behind a little as long as you’re doing it with most of your straights, but in HU pots. Doing this multi-way is pretty bad.
Yeah I considered it. It does block flush draws which I’m okay with having a pair. Also if I’m behind to two pair or set over pairs and a flush draw then I can hit an 8 that doesn’t bring a flush. In the event that I make a straight with a spade i.e. the 9s I’m less likely to be losing blocking some combo draws like 9s8s Ts8s As8s Ks8s. Most of my flop decision was direct pot odds + implied odds. There are reverse implied odds but at this SPR I’m calling any shove that makes a straight or a set for me so I’m not too worried about the RIO.
As Hero? Get it in there. Not optimal spot but I’m ahead of enough to get my stack in. With such a small SPR, its never too big a mistake to get the overpair in.
You can nut-peddle and profit nicely in these types of games. To reach higher winrates you have to open it up though.
I love nits at the table, but life nits are the worst.
I don’t want to put too much of my range out there as I know some guys are taking notes, wink wink. I will say I can show up with 65s but it’s a part of strategy that’s mixed between flat and 3! but at these depths we’re not really deep enough to be doing a lot of flatting oop with this type of hand. That being said there is only one combo of 65 on the turn. I’m folding to one combo almost never and I’ll just nod and smile when you have it.
On the turn the 5h specifically reduces 75 and 65 combos to 1 of each 7c5c, 6c5c and counterfeits all the 76 combos. The 5h is a really good card for hero. We analyze these spots because they come up a ton and the more we study them off the table the more intuitive it becomes and reduces the amount of mistakes we make.
Agreed, I will increase open sizing until I find a size for that table. On this one I think I was 4.5x + 1 per IP and 5.5x + 1 per OOP.
These hands don’t have as much value at lower SPR so it’s hard to justify flatting with them especially not closing the action. The small to medium pp’s are close. I had to call 260K with 4.7M (pot + hero stack), not quite there but with UTG player limping I thought he may come along if I called. Plus 88 is sometimes ahead of 77-55 which I assume you’re opening on the button.
I think the main point here is that when we open larger in order to thin the field by definition we should narrowing our opponents ranges and not expecting to see a lot of low suited connectors and 1 gapers. If we do start seeing those hands from opponents flatting OOP pre flop then that just tells us they’re much wider than we would expect them to be therefore making AA an easy get it in here. We should really only be losing to sets here and if either villain has a straight then this a +EV jam over the donk bet. Initially I was with you at the table about the fold being okay but after putting ranges into Flopzilla AA is crushing. I do think my range is more concerning for you as I’m the first to call your raise from BB and UTG is getting a good price to call quite a bit wider. I think folding flop is really bad and shoving is best. You get value and protection from all the draws and you put the tough decision back on opponents plus some, if not very much, fold equity. No hand better than AA is folding but a lot of hands worse are calling.
Thanks for posting. Really nice hand to go over and this is a spot that comes up more a good amount of time so it’s good to be working through them off the table so we have a plan for all the times we’re in them.
I’m butchering this thread it seems - that’s the problem with multiway pots. I was still thinking about V1 here but I should have included your flatting range as well (would you flat bottom 2 pair on this flop?). Yes, you could have 1 combo of 6/5 (sometimes) but the range I assign to V1 has the remaining 6/5o as well. That’s the lowest unsuited connector I give in my limp/call range. I don’t give them 7/5 of any flavor but maybe I should think about giving them the suited versions sometimes? Only 4 more combos but we have to draw the line someplace
When you see villains playing unsuited connectors below JT, you know their ranges are enormous. Each of those hands adds another 12 combos to take into consideration. I eliminate the unsuited hands if I see enough hands at showdown to make that call but my default is to include them for the typical loose-passive station.
Try this hand out for a similar flop, full-ring and no one tried to define ranges preflop: Hand #522654035 - Replay Poker - it becomes a demolition derby when tables play like this.
with flush draws out there and blocking sets I’m shoving bottom two over an UTG limp/call range pre flop that donks this flop especially with @love2eattacos call. One of them if you got it you got it spots with such a low SPR.
If I had called from BB with 65 it would only be suited and the only combo left is 6c5c. But really I’m folding 65 suited to tacos sizing pre flop 75% and split between call/3! the other 25%.
Yeah when I ranged V in Flopzilla I only gave him off suit connectors down to 76o and 86o for 1 gap. When I add 65o and 75o H’s equity goes down from 78.5% to 74%.
This is scary to so many players, they think OMG this guy can literally have ATC’s. This gets applied to how often or how strong V’s can hit flops but most never stop to consider how often they’ll flop marginal hands (that get overplayed) or whiff them completely. Yeah they have more board coverage but they also miss a lot more too. Like giving him the 65o and 75o adds 10 combos of value to V’s range and he only picks up 4.5% equity, he’s still a huge dog with this range. On top of that I agree with you that I feel I was quite conservative with this range.
This happens in LLSNL and the only one who wins is the casino.
And here is the key to beating up on weak ranges. I wish everyone would read this over and over until they could recite it backwards, in their sleep. Good stuff!
) , but I still find it interesting to see what would be the best move turn turn, even after taking a wrong decision on the flop.
that hand was garbage, I know that, but worse I knew it when I was doing it. UD is never 4! as a bluff there.