There’s slow playing and then there’s strategic use of the clock to change the “flow” on the table. Full use of the time is allowed but running out the timer every hand/street for hand after hand is not appropriate use of the clock and subject to review if reported. Hope this helps.
“Strategic” & “Flow of the Table” is in the mind of the player and subjective to the extreme.
One person’s ‘clever play’ is another’s ‘abuse of the timer’.
Nobody can be fairly disciplined under this policy because the policy requires the judge to determine the exact motive for the slow play, which is impossible.
Well, wizard did not say anything about discipline…he said review
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Here’s how you could craft a rule against running out the clock.
Abuse of the Clock:
Abuse of the clock is defined as letting the clock expire on your turn to play.
- The 1rst violation will trigger a warning and a 30 minute probationary period.
- The 2nd violation within the probationary period will cause your seat to go grey for the remainder of the hand.
- The 3rd violation within the probationary period will cause your seat to go grey for the remainder of the hand and the entire next hand.
- For every subsequent violation your seat will go grey for an additional hand.
- At the end of the 30 minute period your seat will return to normal play.
This is a rule that contains it’s own penalties and is therefore not dependent of the subjective opinion of a staff member. In other words, it is fair.
I’m not suggesting that the details of this rule are ideal. The details can be changed but the application can still remain objective. This is just an example of a rule that eliminates the reliance on subjectivity and reduces the workload on the staff.
Additional details could be added to penalize excessive use of the majority of the clock. For ex., three consecutive uses of greater the 70% of the clock could be the equivalent of letting the clock expire.
Other possibilities could be cumulative clock limits and/or reductions in clock times for serial abusers.(Let your clock expire = reduction of 1 sec of clock time for each turn in the remainder of the session)
The key point I’m trying to make is that every effort should be made to reduce the subjectivity of the rules/moderation/consequences so as to increase the players confidence in the fairness of the site.
The End
Or it could be much simpler, and mods can review the reported issue, and see if the player abused the clock in an acceptable manner that suggests a certain strategy, or if they just did it for 20 or more consecutive times and for no obvious reason other than just to irritate others, and if they have a history of doing it or not. It’s neither time consuming, nor does it require a Ph.D. in psychology to reduce subjectivity. It’s not rocket science either. I think any mod can very easily determine if this is a serial abuser who has been reported or warned before for the same issue, or if it’s an isolated incident.
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I’ll try to be clearer: Using the entire timer each and every street of every hand being played over the course of multiple hands (think dozens) is a violation of the site rules and when reported will be reviewed for further action. An occasional review of the Site Rules is advisable for all players to stay up to date with current policies. Helpful?
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Very good to know. I’ve seen certain players nearly run out their clock on every street as they approach the bubble in MTTs, and it’s highly tilting. That goes double when you’re sitting short-stacked at a table putting your tournament life on the line, while other players are tanking like crazy “protecting” their ICM equity yet there’s nothing you can do directly to affect the speed of their decision. In the past I’d commented in that table’s chat (often to little avail), but didn’t realize it was a reportable offense.
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Anything is a “reportable” offense.
Anyone can report on anyone else to their heart’s content.
Its only when someone is disciplined that we find out where that line is that we cannot cross. Right now it only exists in a staffer’s head.
Running out the clock at the “bubble” in tournament play is a usual and accepted practice. Usually the amount doesn’t qualify as timer “abuse”.
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And of course, the boundaries and extent of “the bubble” are subjective.
No player can know for sure how a mod will define “the bubble”.
We have a rule that can’t be defined and can’t be fairly enforced, which transfers power from the rule to the Mod.
Those are the kind of rules I don’t worry about.
You might as well tell me to sit up straight while playing.
jmo
This was one of the reasons several people suggested instituting hand for hand play at the bubble and for significant pay jumps if still more than 1 table running. Until it is implemented, this behavior is a rational (if annoying) strategy. I don’t know if hand-for-hand is something coming out with the HTML5 upgrade or not but I know its been discussed here before.
Can you please comment on Bushhog’s play. He is holding A10o against my KK.
https://www.replaypoker.com/hand/replay/407684225
This is where I am apprehensive of high bets.
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Although a nail-biter, this is one of the times the smooth call paid off. You’ve played against bushhog before, haven’t you? Clearly, he figured you held a weaker hand than you really had. From HIS perspective, both the raise and the c-bet were right with top pair and top kicker. Once he’d committed to the c-bet and you called, he had no choice but to follow through and bet it all at that point. You made the right decision. If you’d never seen him before, it becomes a lot chancier. A tighter player wouldn’t have raised without a stronger hand. Others may have different opinions, but I think you did it correctly, and likely would’ve done the same.
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You are very correct as usual. I was watching Bushhog play and figured out how he plays. So I was able to trap him when I got the right cards. That’s what my question is to all high betters: what’s your answer to the low layers waiting to trap you. But it all works very well in tournaments. I think probably there should be two strategies and discussions one for tournaments and one for ring.
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@narench, some thoughts regarding your and Bushhog’s play:
Preflop, facing two flats, 300BB deep, you should have raised it up with a hand as strong as kings, my second favorite hand. I’d target a size around 6BB as an isolation raise, which would get other players with weaker hands out of the pot. What if the big blind held 10-6 or 10-7? You’d be in very rough shape after the flop comes and you’d let them into the pot.
Once it gets to Bushhog, facing four limps on the button, I really like his decision to raise. Size was a touch larger than I would advocate - probably somewhere in the 8BB range - but definitely reasonable. Facing a 14BB raise, martin called (unwise out of position, given that he folded on the next street), and it folds around to you.
In this spot, you should have 3-bet somewhere around 40BB. Again, kings are super strong. If everyone else folds, you’ve picked up about 30BB - not bad! If they continue, then you probably have equity against them and can evaluate on later streets.
After the flop, as played, once it checks to you, I’m okay with a check to the preflop aggressor. His bet size is way too large, and pot-commits him on later streets. If he’d continued with all Ac-T combos (3 hands), then he’d also need to continue with all his overpairs (ignoring that you have kings, 6x4 = 24 combos), sets (3x3 = 9 hands), and 78 suited (4 hands; offsuit shouldn’t be betting preflop) for value - a total of 40 hands. What bluffs might he have in his range? Maybe J8 suited (4 hands) if he’d play that as a preflop raise, QJ suited (4 hands), KQ suited (4 hands), and maybe Ac7c or Ac8c with nut flush/inside straight combo draws, for a total of 14 hands. Since his bluff-to-value ratio is about 1:3, he should have been looking at a bet size around half the pot.
Once it comes back to you, rather than calling, why not check-raise all-in? Your hand is near the top of your range, beats a lot of his value, and he’s pot-committed anyway. Put his bluffs in a tough spot, and if another club and/or 7 and/or 8 comes on the turn, you don’t have to worry about the draws coming in.
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Thank you @Alan25main and @WannabeCoder for your reply. Both of you are saying Bushhog’s play is more or less correct, bet size may be less. That’s what I wanted to know. I didn’t know much about his way of playing. I wanted to know from the people with experience in that line of play of their opinion. Thank you.