An interesting new one for review

[lad44]

https://www.replaypoker.com/hand/replay/478173514

IMO: A very interesting hand. Looking for and would certainly appreciate many takers and some quality feedback on this one. Thanks.

1. Given the action, is this a raise from the BB pre-flop? I’d be a ittle wary leading out with this hand into two bigger stacks.

2. Given the actual action of the hand, I should have raised the flop. Specifically, what would you have done here? Picture yourself in my spot and the action went exactly how it did up until it’s your turn to act on the flop. This seems where I went wrong the most.

3. Did I simply end up just getting outplayed here? Or did he just capitalize on my mistake on the flop? Those two sentences imply/mean the same thing, really, I guess.

4. Anything to add? A bit more time may have enabled me to figure his hand out. But, should I actually have known? TBH I was surprised. Anything else that you would have done differently?

Would love to know your thoughts. Thanks.

[Fozman]

Hmm.

• I don’t think I personally would raise up 54s in the big blind in any situation, but some other players may disagree.
• I also don’t know if I would expect 97o to limp-in from EP/MP either. I guess par for the course on a loose-passive table.
• That said, a person who limps-in and then later puts in a massive raise is telling me they’ve hit something rather good.
• Let’s assume we know the opponent has hit a straight, which means you need to catch a flush to win.
• You have 9 outs at that point, so a little less than 20% chance of winning (4:1 odds).
• You must put in another 4500 to win about 9000, 2:1 odds.
• Math says no on this one. Opponent’s behavior says no. I’m folding this one.
• I also personally would not have put the initial 1K bet on the turn either. Others may have bet something, however.

[SunPowerGuru]

@lad44

Given the action, is this a raise from the BB pre-flop?

To me, it’s either a shove or a check. I would lean towards a check unless you have seen him imp and fold to a raise often enough to make it worth while.

@lad44

Given the actual action of the hand, I should have raised the flop.

If you were determined to play the hand, you should have moved in on the flop. You didn’t have enough chips to speculate with a smaller bet.

@lad44

Did I simply end up just getting outplayed here?

You didn’t get out played, you were out drawn. Nothing you could have done on the turn would have mattered. Your 1k bet looked like what it was… a blocking bet.

Generally speaking, it’s not a great idea to chase the flush unless you are chasing the nuts or near nuts. (and getting the right odds) You don’t want to try to make second best hand. I don’t know how many times I have seen people make their flush just to get beat by a bigger one.

Let’s say you checked around on the turn, then hit your flush on the river. Who can call your bet without having a flush too? If you do get action there, it will almost always be a better flush.

Same applies to chasing straights. If you’re getting the right price to chase, you don’t want to be on the low end.

[bahia7]

Personally, I’d never raise pre-flop with a hand like that, even out of the BB. I’d prefer to see a cheap flop and get away from the hand if nothing hit, especially facing the big stacks at the table. They could call or re-raise just because they can. The turn is where I think you really got in trouble. Your bet seemed exploratory, so I put you on a straight or flush draw, maybe 2 pair. When he raised, I put him on a made straight (4-7 or 7-9). He seemed to want to make you pay to see that last card, so he probably figured you had a flush draw and may have even been hoping you would fold. That’s just my take on it without knowing the table image of the players…that can change everything.

[lad44]

This hand is a lot more straight forward (no pun intended lol) and not quite as interesting once I got some more eyes on it. After slowing it down several times and reading your good points, I see a lot of where I went wrong more clearly. In the heat of the moment I didn’t have him on a nine high straight; I flat out admit I just misread this situation. I’ll remember this one and try to pay better attention in similar spots. Should have been a bit more of a no brainer. Being a little embarrassed will add to the motivation!

[puggywug]

It’s pretty much all been said already, but I’ll still say:

45s in the BB should check preflop, then fold to the first bet, unless you flop a full house or trips, or maybe two pair or an open-ended straight draw.

This flop was a mirage. You hit a pair of 5s, and needed a 3 for a 2-6 straight or two more hearts for a baby flush. I’m guessing that, combined with the check-around at the flop was what made you feel good about the hand.

One possible read at the turn is that no one hit the flop and your 5’s were good. If you were ahead with 5s, a big bet at the flop might have closed the hand down. But that’s a big risk if you get called and all you have is 5s. It’s better to just wait for a better hand to risk your chips on.

If I was in your situation and going to try to take the hand, I’d treat it like a steal situation and make the bet pot-sized or overbet the pot, maybe even shove. If you’re right and no one has anything, you’ll take the hand, but when you do that you’re risking your entire stack for what’s in the middle. Whether it’s worth it or not depends entirely on how likely your opponents still in the hand are likely to call you.

You have to ask yourself how many times can you get the table to fold before one call busting you makes it no longer worth it, and then sense how likely the people at the table are to fold that many times. Because odds are, a pair of 5s with a inside draw to a low straight is going to get beat when it gets called.

I can understand why you tried to bet on the Turn though. The action on this hand is very slow, making it tempting to try to take the pot. You could have maybe done that, with a bigger bet, although given what shanefoolr held that wasn’t going to happen at the turn. Once he raised, you should have realized you were beat and let it go. Shoving when you did, it was too little too late. It wasn’t likely to induce him to fold, and so you should have only done it if you were certain you would prevail in the showdown. A pair of 5s doesn’t assure this type of certainty.

Still, it could have went the other way if you had rivered a heart. But then, playing low flushes is a bad bet in the long run anyway.

I will say it’s better that you lose this hand and learn the right lessons from it than to win it and think it was a good play and let that inform your future play. So, good experience here.

[lad44]

Agreed, puggywug. Agreed very much.

@puggywug

One possible read at the turn is that no one hit the flop and your 5’s were good. If you were ahead with 5s, a big bet at the flop might have closed the hand down. But that’s a big risk if you get called and all you have is 5s. It’s better to just wait for a better hand to risk your chips on.

True.

@puggywug

I can understand why you tried to bet on the Turn though. The action on this hand is very slow, making it tempting to try to take the pot. You could have maybe done that, with a bigger bet, although given what shanefoolr held that wasn’t going to happen at the turn. Once he raised, you should have realized you were beat and let it go. Shoving when you did, it was too little too late. It wasn’t likely to induce him to fold, and so you should have only done it if you were certain you would prevail in the showdown. A pair of 5s doesn’t assure this type of certainty.

Spot on.

@puggywug

I will say it’s better that you lose this hand and learn the right lessons from it than to win it and think it was a good play and let that inform your future play. So, good experience here.

Definitely.

[Comicguy]

@lad44 - IMO, you weren’t outplayed at all. The limpers gave you a freeroll in the BB with a hand that you couldn’t normally play at these stacks. 5/4s is a great hand in LP when playing cash games or when stacks are deep. Its 5-high late in a tournament with shorts stacks. When short, you are looking for high cards to make strong pairs with or comb-draws that can shove. You can’t play multiple streets on drawing hands any longer.

I think you had a decision point on the flop whether to shove or not. You had a pair and some backdoor draws in case you were called. Would it have worked? With your stack relative to the initial limpers, probably would have. On the other hand, People limp medium pairs so he could have had a hand that would call and you would have wound up busted out.

I don’t like the small bet on the turn because it looked like exactly what it was. I think you compounded the error by calling his raise. Even if he was raising his big draws, they probably had you in bad shape. So, once you played passively on the flop, I’d look to get to showdown unless you improved to 2-pair+ on the turn. I would have folded to his likely bet and looked for another spot.

There is an old maxim in tournaments and that is you should never call off your stack on a draw. Shove with one? Sure, all day long but never call with one (unless its a huge combo-draw or something). Same thing with shoving - shove light, call tight.

[lad44]

Thanks and agreed. This was me misreading the play throughout this hand. I see the spots where I went wrong. Yes, good advice regarding the big picture.