Pre ~ QT on the big. It folds to SB. He limps. I open 2.5x and he calls.
Flop ~ A38-rb. We both check.
Turn ~ T gives me 2nd pair. He bets half-pot. I call.
River ~ 8di brings in di. Villain snap bets pot. I call and take it down. He had K9 - total air.
My read of his story. When he donked half-pot on turn, it felt like a button push. What is the slow play on that flop? AA? AK? His range is capped by he uber-weak pre-flop. At best the slow play is A3, A8, maybe 33, but this really feels like a button push. If I were in his shoes slow playing 2-pair or better, I would value bet this turn. Half-pot is too large, especially considering that I checked back the flop.
Now his river is better, because it looks like his draw hit and he wants to get paid, but it still feels like a button push, full pot. Most likely, he is just continuing his bluff into my passiveness. The only reason that I don’t come over top is the diamonds on the board.
I was right, he had air. His story really came apart on the turn.
Addendum: This is also why I rarely bet with the buttons. Even if I want to bet half pot, I will type in a number something like 45% or 55% of pot, to make the more aware players know that I am actually calculating my bets, not pushing buttons, so that my bets get taken more seriously.
Okay, so you raise pre after he limps. There’s an ace on the flop. He checks. You probably could have taken it there, not relied on a lucky turn, and not had to show the hand with which you raised, unless past play suggests he would slow play the top pair?
As for typing in the chat, just take a second or two before betting.
SB naturally checks on the flop - you can’t call that slow playing no matter what they have.
Also, it’s better to say that they probed the turn, because leading after the flop checks through is very different to leading after the flop is c-bet, and you shouldn’t bucket those two actions together with the same terminology.
Your opponent can easily have an 8 too. I suspect that’s what they’re actually trying to represent, rather than the flush. That’s more likely to check the turn though, so agreed this is usually a bluff - easily often enough that you have to call.
I don’t think you ever get to come over the top though - what worse hand calls?
I feel you. I always bet in amounts of big blinds close to the actual percentage pot size I want, and absolutely hate it when a spot calls for a 50% pot bet and that is a whole number of blinds.
That is never a donk bet. You checked the flop you gave up the betting lead.
A donk bet is when they bet into you when you have the betting lead.
He still has a lot of combos that are beating you that take this line; AT, A8, A3s, 33, 88 and his bluffs got there at the river.
Your turn call is fine, but this river is a clear fold.
His story came apart on the turn because you felt like it was a button push?
That is not the correct way to play.
sure players here do not structure their ranges correctly, but you still have better bluff catchers than QT.
It was more than that. It was his bet sizing. His bet was too large for value, especially when I had checked back the flop. Why would he bet half-pot on that turn? He thought that I was weak and he decided to bluff and pushed a button.
Not really. All those hands should open from the small blind, and I think even fairly inexperienced players are going to do that a decent amount of the time. It’s still a very wide configuration in any case - they can have a ton of bluffs that don’t get there too.
For me, it’s really the timing on the river that’s the give away. A ton of stuff comes in on this river - you can’t just instantly bet pot unless you have a bluff. Everything else has to think about whether they can still bet and what the sizing should be.
How good a bluff catcher is doesn’t matter if a spot is over bluffed.
Basing on GTO, they shouldn’t even have a limp range at all. I’ve seen players limp and call with AA all the way to Q2s from the SB, so what is the right range? Your perceived range? My perceived range? or the solver proved range? (even though that’s not possible). Do you see the problem with this?
Again this is your perception not the absolute truth, tell @Younguru how he feels about that?
I’m not basing that of GTO, which has a ton of open limps from the small blind. If this had limped to the small blind, I’d be inclined to agree with you, but this folded to the small blind. I’ve seen people complete with QQ+, but Ax and lower pocket pairs almost always open. People aren’t going to let the big blind out flop them with a worse hand when they can most likely just pick up that blind for cheap.
I’ll be wrong sometimes, sure, but for this to be a clear fold they’d have to be under bluffing on that river, and everything in the hand (except for the river sizing) points in the opposite direction. I won’t deny that the river sizing is disturbing, but less so if napkins read that they’re just clicking buttons is correct - because then they only had two options, so the size is less revealing. I actually think that’s a very important read for this hand.
If I’ve seen someone use mostly custom sizes and then they bet pot here, I’d be way more inclined to fold, although I still think it’s close.
Oh, but also this. I think you could maybe check back your best K high hands here, and also sets and weak pairs, but if ever there was a range bet spot, this has to be it.
GTO doesn’t have a limp range, unless it is an MTT.
What facts do you have about villain that they play this exact way? Because of the player pool tendency? Fact is, they can have anything, assuming that they don’t take those preflop lines with Ax and lower pocket pairs is a mistake. or do you have info about villain ranges that we don’t?
What makes you say that they are overbluffing? We both have no info that this villain is a maniac.
Nothing in their postflop line says otherwise, decent value and bluff hands will take those flop and turn lines.
His turn bet here is too large to be value, especially after I check back the flop. I know that when I slow play (say I hit 2-pair on a non-paired flop) and get a check back, my turn value bet has to be small or Villain runs to the hills.
I’ve been thinking this over and you are so right. It makes perfect sense what you are trying to tell me now. If this was a regluar (non-paired) flop then yes when villain checks to me I should at least be looking for possible slow plays, ut on a paired-flop any bet usually folds out all value, so of course I can’t view it as a slow play, it is THE play. Thank you for this.
In essence, pot and half-pot bets are calculated in big blinds preflop. Overall, the buttons allow me to focus on what my opponent appears to be doing, rather than on crafting the perfect bet size. Sure, there are occasions when I might want to bet over the pot size or under half. There is also the odd occasion where I will min raise. Rather than working it out in my head by calculating big blinds while the time clock ticks down, I find it easier to click one of the buttons then quickly adjust up or down from there.
If a player thinks they have the best hand and doesn’t bet, that is slow playing regardless of a motive that can’t be confirmed until after the fact.
We agree that napkin should be betting range on this flop, so the small blind should be check raising their strong hands. Donking with any hand here would be a blunder. Checking is not slow playing when check raising is the best option.
I agree, but if there just clicking buttons, then they have used the small size. I don’t think you can read too much into the sizing on the turn and then also disregard the sizing on the river. They just don’t really have much value on the turn regardless of the size used.