Yes - that’s exactly what I’m saying. The solver isn’t folding in the villain’s shoes either, but it still has the hero betting. Hero has value and should want to get called.
With card chasers not much to do as he is chasing no matter what, probably fold the river (real money DEFINELTY fold on the river).
Playing with bingo players:)…nothing you can do but what you did do.
People do fold on a fake chip site.
People do fold on microstakes.
People do fold on Low/Med/High stakes.
People do fold…
Honestly if I find a game where these are the hands that I’m getting called regardless of stakes. I’d be thankful even if I get a bad beat.
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I suppose he has 12 outs (he thinks he has 13) on the turn and he’s borderline pot committed, but thinking this over even more, I think his flop call is worse.
He limp-called T6s (granted with position). I was the PFR in the SB. My range is TIGHT as yoga pants here. Then the flop absolutely smashes my range and I lead the flop with 1/3rd. He calls it with 2 backdoors and a T high? Srsly?
7 or 8 times outta 10 he donates to my cause, no?
Yes they do. Even on Replay, people will fold draws. Not as often as they should but they do. Yes it can be difficult to get people to find the fold button, but it’s not impossible.
This does make it quite difficult to bluff at low stakes, but at 2.5k MTT half the players bet the strength of their hand. So what I used to do all the time in freerolls and 2.5 and even in 7.5 often is when I have position and there are 2 or 3 checked streets I know that no one has anything on the board, especially rivers when all the draws bust. I toss out a half-pot and everyone folds. This doesn’t work so well the higher the stakes.
Bottom line tho, people will fold. You just have to find the right spot, the right Villain. It can be tricky for sure.
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Online poker ppl. LOVE to call as i guess pushing a button is easy–live in a casino ppl. i guess are embarrassed lol:).
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Correct. It’s a worse call on the flop than the turn. Solver obviously doesn’t have Tc6c in range, but Tc9c/Tc8c (which are open ended/double gutted) call, but Qc9c with just the gut-shot folds. Q9 and T6 are basically the same hand in this spot, and there’s no way T6 can be a better call, so any way you look at it, the flop call is worse than the turn.
Exactly, this is the most important part.
and well done for finding those bluffing spots on your example. 
Yeah I use to not understand why people would be embarrassed of showing a bluff or getting caught. But I did have a player make a snarky remark on one of my plays on a live MTT, so I can assume some recreational players had bad experience being ridiculed by donkeys, so they think it is embarrassing showing a bluff even though it is not.
i think you’re missing Dude’s point about few players on here fold even when pushed. You may as well go all-in every time against them and the only way you’ll win is when you only have the best hand. This type of play destroys any type of strategy you may have because if bluffing, it doesn’t work.
That’s not even close to true. It’s a mistake a lot of people make, because they get fixated and winning hands, but if you start thinking in terms of chips it becomes obvious you want people to call with their draws.
If you’re in a game where you can go all-in on the turn and always get called by draws that’s fantastic for your win rate in terms of chips. You’re going to win a stack at least 2/3rds of the time, and often a lot more than that.
You’ll win more hands if opponents fold some of their draws, because you obviously win 100% of the time when the fold, and their draws will have some equity, but that’s always a much smaller pot. You can never generate enough folds to make up the difference.
It feels bad when someone lucks out and you lose a stack, and it feels great when you don’t put them all in and lose the minimum, but getting all the money in is way more profitable in the long run.
You can’t get away with going all-in in theory, because then people have to start getting very selective with their draws (and especially their no-nut value), but if you’re in a game where your always getting called, you should be going all-in all the time with all value hands. (It’s your draws you need to play passively)
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majority of the time, players hit their draws. only thing you can do is hope they don’t.
it don’t matter your chip stack. jam all in and a suited hand will call. it don’t matter what those 2 cards are. they just call cause their suited.
straight and flush draws they don’t fold. all you can do is hope they miss. majority of the time they get their straight or flush.
at least from what I’ve seen and experience
Totally not true. The math on this is with 4 in suit on the flop, 35% chance to complete with 2 streets left, and if the turn whiffs, 19% on the river. If you believe the game is rigged, then I will tell you my experience. I make lots of money value betting the first 2 streets of a draw board and then watching Villain fold the river when I see the draw bust, and I’ve spent the past month running BADLY. So the majority of the time, the draw does NOT come in.
With some players this is very true. With MANY players this is semi-true, yes. But even at low stakes (ok maybe not the 1/2 and 2/4), most tables have at least one capable player with a sensible fold button and a basic understanding of what Villain might have. Especially if you get deep into a tournament most of the bums are gone and at that final table there will be 4 or 5 or 6 players who have a clue. If you bet pot and they have 76s and a gut, even if they know that you;re bluffing, they can’t in good conscience call you with 7-high because they’re smart enough to fold. Yes there are still fish at final tables but you can usually tell who they are.
No, they don’t. The math is 35% from the flop to complete the flush. A gut is something like 13ish % and open ended is something like 26ish%. As I said, even running badly I can still make money on Villain’s busted draws. It should happen 30% of time and the past month for me I would estimate it at closer to 50%, so even at it’s worst it is not the majority. Frustrating? Sure. Majority? Nope.
P.S. I NEVER EVER shown my cards unless i am called and have 2–You don’t want ppl. knowing, make them pay 2 see, just my opinion:)…Ok, on this fun free site i will sometimes show my cards to a friend 2 let them know i had a good hand----REAL cash, never.
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I do not mean a bluff:)–I mean these awww card chasing donks who play with A high until the river etc. and the bingo players etc…MUCH easier just pushing a button at home then in a casino with many ppl. looking at you like your crazy lol.
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How do you feel about multiway pots. Say you have 3 callers calling. Is this the time to size up and get a draw to fold? I mean obviously if the straight busts all 3 callers bust, but let’s say the board is very wet with flush and multiple straights. Would it not be better to try to thin the herd so that there is only one way to get sucked out?
whatever. I know my experience and what I’ve seen.
Well, it depends, but betting large to thin out the field is never +EV *(1). Again, this usually comes down to winning the most chips vs winning the most hands. The more players in the pot, the lower your equity will be, but the bigger the pot. The pot always grows way more than your equity decreases, so more people in the pot is better - or more accurately, the biggest possible pot is the best, regardless of how you get there.
Obviously multi-way it gets complicated with different stack sizes, and tournaments add a whole other layer of complexity, but generally you can’t go wrong with trying to build the biggest pot possible with your good hands. If you’re trying to win the most chips instead of win the most pots, you almost never need to worry about how many people are in the hand *(2)
*(1) There are some cases where it is, but usually it’s only when you can get a good player to fold, and a weak player to call.
*(2) With the thick value hands. It matters a great deal with your medium strength hands, bluffs and draws.
The exception to what your saying Lihuie is tournament play, when you have a skill edge, and when the pot is a good sized, SEMI BIG pot.
In those situations. You want to bet double pot, tripple pot, all in, when you have that pot won so far, with best hand, or with semi bluff if they have a fold button, because you do want them to fold even if you have it, as your still going to win a semi big good sized pot that you want, ok to take it down now, because if they call, hit, your out of the tournament before cashing, winning the tournament.
If they call your still ok if you have them beat so far, but you should PREFER the fold, taking down that AWESOME SEMI BIG pot down right now, with not having to worry about busting out, before cashing, winning, because with your skill edge, that AWESOME SEMI BIG pot will enable you to keep on outplaying, beating them until you likely cash or win.
Pro PHIL Gordon, and other PROS like Chris Ferguson have also said that is the right way to play in tournaments.
In cash games, yes you do want them to call, give you MAX value because not only will you win 67% time, etc, but there is no tournament life to be concerned about, etc, as you can just put more money, chips on table.
If your not very good, if you dont have a skill edge in a tournament, then yes, you do want them to call on draw to get max value when they dont suck out, which happen 67% of time, because you need all the chips you can get because you dont have a skill edge, and your not very good, and your a bad player, and those extra chips might help you cash, make the money.