Comparing Simple Strategies

Brief update on this run of Pre Flop Hammer:

The run is close to done, with about 900 hands played. So one more brief session on 4 tables should be enough to finish it off. It’s doing well so far, with 24 pots won versus 16 pots lost (and 22 all in moves that got no callers). Note also, that that is even better than it sounds, as the size of pots won tends to be bigger than the size of pots lost, due to a fairly large number of multi way pots (kind of comic that there have been well over a dozen).

The tables have varied significantly, with some almost never calling my all in bets, and others where almost every jam gets 2 or 3 callers. One funny example early: I go all in with 88 and get called by Q7 off and Q3 suited, and then lose when a queen hits on the river.

Given how wide I’m often getting called, I have widened my range a bit, going all in once with 66, and several times with AQ off and AJ off, on tables where I was getting called really wide. I also tightened my ranges a bit after achieving a really big stack if there was someone else that could still call that would risk a significant portion of my chips (roughly anything more than 3 max buy-ins), as these players will in general be a bit more careful about the hands they call with.

Ouch, what a horrible final 100 hands. Won 2 additional hands, but one was against a short stacked player, and so only got a few big blinds from that win, and then lost 4. I was also a pre flop favorite in every hand.

On the face of it, I suppose that sounds like a bad result, but it wasn’t nearly as bad as it seems. Several were multi-way pots, and you’re lucky to even have a 50% chance of winning those. In one example, I had AQ off against KJ off and 76 off, giving me a 40% chance to win (KJ has a 32% chance, and 76 a 26% chance). Another I had AJ suited against A8 suited and A3 suited. Even there, dominating both opponents where you’d think I’d be a huge favorite, I was only 47% to 24% to 21%, respectively, and ended up losing. The multi-way pots always feel kind of tough, since in general you’ll lose most of them. On the plus side, when you do win, the pot will tend to be larger than the pots you lose.

In the end, I went all in 72 times in 1,003 hands, or 7.2% of the time (throwing in AJ off and AQ off, even only some of the time, added quite a few hands, and helped stave off the boredom, LOL). Of those all in shoves, 26 times I won at least more than I lost with someone else in the pot (some multi-way pots finish close to even, as you beat the biggest stack, but then lose to some of the others), 26 times I won after getting a call, and 20 times I lost.

Pre Flop Hammer 3 results:
Tables played: 5/10 NL Holdem 9 max
Hands played: 1,003
Chips won: $24,159
BB/100 hands: 240.87

So still actually finished with a slightly better win rate than the very first run on 1/2. Note also, that winning 6 hands more than I lost, you might think I’d have won about $12,000, given I was buying in for $2,000. You might think it would even be less than that, given that many other players were buying in for $1,200 or less. Here, the frequency of multi-player pots, and occasional pots against big stacks, allowed a net of 6 wins to result in $24k in winnings.

  • Super Nit @ 1/2: 856 BB/100
  • Pre-Flop Hammer @ 1/2: 222 BB/100
  • Lazy Limper @ 2/4: 372 BB/100
  • Passive Fish @ 2/4: 73 BB/100
  • Pre Flop Hammer @ 5/10: 241 BB/100
  • Value Village @ 5/10: 220 BB/100
  • Lazy Limper @ 10/20: 244 BB/100
  • Pressure Cooker @ 25/50: 139 BB/100
  • Robo TAG @ 50/100: 131 BB/100
  • Pre Flop Hammer @ 100/200: 2 BB/100
  • LAG Problems @ 100/200: 125 BB/100
  • Orphaned Pot Adopter @ 200/400: 49 BB/100
  • Value Village @ 500/1,000: 109 BB/100
  • The Maniac @ 1k/2k: 39 BB/100
  • Random Fool @ 2k/4k: 26 BB/100
  • Multiple Personality Disorder @ 5k/10k: 66 BB/100
  • Small Ball @ 10k/20k: 3 BB/100
  • Super Nit @ 20k/40k: 58 BB/100
  • Night Rain @ 50k/100k: 77 BB/100
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I agree with @SunPowerGuru on the value of this experiment. Its an excellent thread and has piqued my interest. I’m a data guy and would love to see larger samples of strict strategies effectiveness over multiple stakes. I am working out a similar experiment on cash sites now with 10 of my students. I will bankroll them under the condition that they implement specific strategies at various stakes for a fixed number of hands.

If anyone has an idea how I could do that here, I’d be willing to bankroll 10 players on this site to conduct the same experiment. The only condition is that I would need the hand data to verify the results and that the strategies were implemented without deviation for the course of the experiment.

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It’s a bit intimidating making suggestions since I have no doubt that you have already considered a number of potential solutions in greater depth than I am capable of!

You could require that the participants manually record the data. Apart from being tedious and time
consuming, that would also require that they leave the table every 150 hands or so to prevent the hand history being overwritten. The other problem that I can see, immediately, is that there might be a strategy that shows a small return with a 200BB buy-in but has increasing effectiveness as the players stack grows. If the player has to leave the table to record the data, their stack will be reset when they resume play and this sort of effect would not be noticeable.

The only other option, therefore, is computer based although there may be some clause buried in the terms of use that prohibit automated data capture.

Your requirements seem to be quite simple in that you only need data capture as opposed to something like an HUD which requires writing a complete screen overlay. Given that Replay is a “no download” site, with free chips, I can’t imagine that any form of data encryption is employed.

Quite some time ago, a player started a thread regarding an HUD that they were developing for Replay. I doubt that the HUD progressed given the amount of opposition to the idea but helping you with your application, if we can find that thread, may be something that they would be interested in.

Another obvious place to look is the person who wrote the bankroll chart plugin.

No doubt there are several or perhaps many other competent programmers here who would be interested in this project. Perhaps a public call for help would be of assistance?

Regards,
TA

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I’d like to congratulate theanalyst01 for sitting down at one of the tables I was playing on, and correctly picking out the style I was playing, which is still yet to be announced. I’m getting fairly close to the end of the run, though, and so will probably post the results tonight (if I finish) or tomorrow.

Note that, over a fairly small sample of hands, and with more than a dozen play styles to pick from, figuring out which Yoru no Ame I am is not a trivial task. But just figuring out things like the following are, in general, very valuable in figuring out how best to play against anyone:

  • is the pre flop range wide or narrow?
  • a lot of 3 bets or almost none?
  • are bluffs common?
  • are checks consistently weak?
  • are there obvious patterns with bet sizing?

Almost all of these styles produce different results to the questions above, and answers to the questions will make big differences in how you’ll want to play against different opponents.

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I must admit to sometimes feeling, especially at low stakes, like some of my opponents cannot possibly be thinking, reasoning human beings, but instead must be some kind of insect larva recently trained to push the call, check and raise buttons.

LOL… does that sound like someone who has just finished a frustrating session?

I have to admit that I keep thinking Value Village will outperform most of these other styles, especially at low and medium stakes, and it keeps falling a bit flat. I think running bad is certainly part of the equation, but it’s also making me wonder if this excessively straight forward style is not missing out in a number of areas:

  • A little more flexibility in bet sizing would be nice… I’ve seen some amazing spots with people calling pot sized bets on the flop with nothing, on the turn with bottom pair, and then catching 2 pair to win on the river. You really want to start over betting the pot at least to a degree with even top pair when you find call stations like that, and you also want to start value betting a lot more than just top pair.
  • Limping more broadly with a lot of speculative hands, especially on tables where there is not a lot of pre flop aggression, would add a lot of value, as your implied odds are just much, much better than they would usually be.
  • There is less value to raising with your speculative hands (this variant raises fairly wide as it gets close to the button) when your c-betting frequency is so low. One of the nice things about raising with surprise hands, is that you can usually c-bet effectively on a lot of flops that look like they probably hit your raising range, without needing to actually hit something, and this style almost never bets without solid value.
  • While I did get a lot of calls, I think even at these stakes I also got quite a few opponents that started to appreciate I was playing very “fit or fold”, and so there were some players where having a few more low risk, early street bluffs might have helped increase profit.

In terms of play, I kind of blended the approach used in the first Value Village and the 2nd. I also allowed some limping behind other limpers with hands like small pairs, Ax suited, and suited connectors, rather than raising. And with my value bets where I thought I did not have 3 streets of value, I was more inclined to bet early in spots where I thought opponents where more likely to have a lot of equity (wet boards).

Value Village 3 results:
Tables played: 10/20 NL Holdem 9 max and 6 max
Hands played: 1,006
Chips won: $35,373
BB/100 hands: 175.81

All low stakes test runs:

  • Pre-Flop Hammer @ 1/2: 222 BB/100
  • Super Nit @ 1/2: 856 BB/100
  • Passive Fish @ 2/4: 73 BB/100
  • Lazy Limper @ 2/4: 372 BB/100
  • Value Village @ 5/10: 220 BB/100
  • Pre Flop Hammer @ 5/10: 241 BB/100
  • Value Village @ 10/20: 176 BB/100
  • Lazy Limper @ 10/20: 244 BB/100
  • Pressure Cooker @ 25/50: 139 BB/100

Thanks for the shoutout! I was a bit slow picking your style because limping behind was not, if I remember correctly, part of the original Value Village. I remember that you have threatened to play your more “normal” style at the low stakes which may well include limping behind with speculative hands in late position and probably has a bluff ratio as high as 30% under certain conditions.

I was able to immediately discount the Preflop Hammer and Super Nit styles based on your betting pattern and your range seemed a bit too tight to be consistent with your regular style. There were a few boards that I felt sure you would bet on and you didn’t which pushed me further away from thinking you were playing any form of your regular game. On the other hand, I did see you bet on boards that were not, to me, favourable for bluffing. That sort of betting pattern clearly marked you as being value heavy and there is only one style that fits that description.

It was an interesting exercise for me and it is very rewarding to have been able to pick your style. Thank you for the opportunity!

Regards,
TA

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OK, launched a new style yesterday, and am about half way into it. It was pretty tepid the first 2 or 3 sessions, and I was wondering if this would be the first style to go down in flames, but the last session was probably the hottest I’ve run in any of the roughly 20,000 hands now played in these test runs. The style will be volatile, though (probably the most volatile of all styles played so far), and so the outcome is probably not locked up, even winning several thousand big blinds over around 100 hands.

I’m naming this GAG, for Geometric AGgression (and because it sounds silly). The initial idea: focus on finding spots to get all the chips in the middle, using geometrically sized bets to make sizing pretty similar on all streets (though I’m often jamming on the turn with large over bets of the pot as well).

GAG mechanics:

  • very wide, LAG style pre-flop range:
    • 6: AA-22, AK-AQ, AJs-ATs, A3s-A2s, T9s-76s, all suited broadway
    • 5: AJ, Ax suited, KQ, all suited connectors
    • 4: AT, QJ, JT, all one gap suited connectors
    • 3: A9, all broadway, K9s, Q9s
    • 2: A8, Kx suited
    • 1: all suited double gap (all the way down to 52s)
    • 0: Qx suited, T9-76
    • ignore limpers in front of you (except that your bet should be bigger because the pot will be bigger), and mostly never limp except from the blinds, unless the limp seems just irresistible (I’ve limped twice behind other limpers in 500 hands while not in the blinds)
  • Post Flop Play Against Tight Players (1 or 2)
    • with strong hands like top pair good kicker on the flop (and a bit stronger with 2), make geometric bet
    • with weaker value hand, make small bet (I haven’t found myself doing this much)
    • check with marginal holdings
    • weak hands with no showdown value and no good draw: 70% check, 20% small, 10% geometric
    • solid draw: 50% check, 20% small, 30% geometric
    • marginal holding with solid draw: 30% check, 20% small, 50% geometric
  • Post Flop Against Call Stations (1 or 2)
    • throw out many of the bluffs, especially those without draws
    • make geometric bets with lighter value, and especially thin value that also has decent draws
  • Multi Way Post Flop
    • make fewer geometric bets while you still have many opponents
    • increase frequency of smaller bet sizes
    • increase value threshold for aggressive lines
    • continue to take geometric lines with some weak value hands that combine strong draws
  • For all post flop play, re-evaluate hand strength on every street: a bluff on the flop might become a check on the turn if you hit a card that improves your hand from trash to marginal, and aggression into you might turn a marginal hand into trash you’ll now bluff with again. Also, just because you took a geometric line on the flop, say with AQ on a board of AT3 rainbow, if you get two tighter callers and a turn of 6, your hand is slipping into thin value territory, and a check or smaller bet on the turn is preferable.

I’ve made more mistakes sticking to this game plan than with others. I’ve folded some hands pre-flop that I’m supposed to raise with (this opening range is not cemented in my head very well), and I’ve also not been faithfully executing any massive bluffs with complete trash that also has no draws at all… but I think in part that has been because I’ve both seen a high frequency of multi-way pots, and most of my opponents have not been even remotely tight.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see if anyone reads this and comes up with some effective counter strategies on the tables tomorrow.

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GAG results:
Tables played: 25/50 NL Holdem 9 max
Hands played: 1,002
Chips won: $150,301
BB/100 hands: 300.00

The bulk of the winnings came in the single, short stretch of hands earlier, when I both hit a bunch of big hands, and got called on high equity bluffs and hit outs. But I think in general at this level, trying to make a lot of big bets if you are thoughtful about when to do it is probably prone to have good results.

Results summary:

  • Pre-Flop Hammer @ 1/2: 222 BB/100
  • Super Nit @ 1/2: 856 BB/100
  • Passive Fish @ 2/4: 73 BB/100
  • Lazy Limper @ 2/4: 372 BB/100
  • Value Village @ 5/10: 220 BB/100
  • Pre Flop Hammer @ 5/10: 241 BB/100
  • Value Village @ 10/20: 176 BB/100
  • Lazy Limper @ 10/20: 244 BB/100
  • Pressure Cooker @ 25/50: 139 BB/100
  • GAG @ 25/50: 300 BB/100
  • Robo TAG @ 50/100: 131 BB/100
  • Pre Flop Hammer @ 100/200: 2 BB/100
  • LAG Problems @ 100/200: 125 BB/100
  • Orphaned Pot Adopter @ 200/400: 49 BB/100
  • Value Village @ 500/1,000: 109 BB/100
  • The Maniac @ 1k/2k: 39 BB/100
  • Random Fool @ 2k/4k: 26 BB/100
  • Multiple Personality Disorder @ 5k/10k: 66 BB/100
  • Small Ball @ 10k/20k: 3 BB/100
  • Super Nit @ 20k/40k: 58 BB/100
  • Night Rain @ 50k/100k: 77 BB/100

When you say, “geometrically sized bets to make bets similar on all streets,” I am guessing you mean similar in terms of percentages of the pot on that street, and that the percentages are chosen in order to get stacks in by the river?

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Yes, I should probably have elaborated on that a bit more. I’m basically asking myself the question, how do I want to bet to make it easiest to get stacks in by the river, or even the turn. So if stacks are really deep, I’m likely to over bet the pot on the flop, to do the same on the turn and river, generally with a goal of making smaller over bets on the later streets. If the SPR (stack to pot ratio) is not so high, I might be able to make relatively modest bets on each street, and still easily get stacks in.

I also had quite a few spots where I decided to bet double or triple the pot on the turn for an all in shove, either with a draw where I thought the fold equity plus my equity in the hand worked out well, or with a nut-ish hand where I thought I was more likely to get stacks in that way. So this was a deviation from the geometric idea, but still part of the quest to try and find as many spots as viable to maneuver all in.

Two quick examples:

  • 500 pot on flop, 12,500 effective stacks; 750 bet on flop = 2,500 stack; 3,000 bet on turn = 8,500 pot; left with a roughly pot sized river jam
  • 800 on flop, 6k effective stacks; 600 bet on flop for 2,000 pot; 1,500 bet on turn for 5,000 pot; remaining 3,900 in the middle on the river.
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OK, thanks. So if I’m seeing this right (which is bound to happen sooner or later) that type of betting is pretty SPR dependent. If it’s too low, you could be giving your opponent direct odds to make calling correct, and with a high SPR, you have to bet so much that it’s hard for hands you are beating to continue, though this will be somewhat offset by increased fold equity.

Sorry, I didn’t mean to hijack your thread, but I had never heard the term and I’m a curious fella!

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Yes, it’s inherently a little silly to be always trying to do this like I was in this test, but trying things out like this… well, I find it helpful in figuring out what the boundaries are.

And also like you suggested, this breaks down the most both in a low SPR and in a very high SPR situation. Low SPR, I probably would have really just shipped it on the flop or turn. With a very high SPR you’d need to over bet the pot by a silly amount on every street, and in general that doesn’t seem likely to be an optimal line often. In practice, I didn’t make bets larger than 2x pot often, with the primary exception being some turn jams.

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OK, starting a new run that I expect will combine features of GAG with Pressure Cooker. Up to you at this point to figure out how you think I’m combining them (or how you think you might). Will be playing on 50/100 a little later today.

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Well, the natural name for this Pressure Cooker and GAG combo was obviously PC GAG, but I worried some people might find that mildly offensive, much as I found it amusing. In the end, I wimped out and went with GAG Cook.

I really had a hard time with my pre flop ranges on this one, folding more with hands I was supposed to raise, and raising more with hands that I was supposed to fold, than I had done in any of the other runs. I made this one strangely tight from early position, and then quite wide from late position, and the transition from tight play in early seats to very loose play later was hard to keep straight, especially given that the shape of the range was quite different than I normally use.

I don’t think I’ll be able to simply describe what I did here, as this strategy involved taking a much greater diversity of post flop line types than any other before, but I’ll start with the easy part, describing how it differed from its two component styles.

Relative to GAG, the pre-flop opening range is quite a bit tighter early, and much looser close to the button. While it continued to search for chances to take geometric lines and other lines angling to get all of the chips in the middle (both with value and with bluffs), the most predominant post flop line was a Pressure Cooker type line, with escalating small bets on every street.

Pressure Cooker raised with 100% of hands pre-flop from any position if there were no prior raises, so relative to Pressure Cooker this was very tight. Pressure Cooker also took only two lines post-flop, either the annoying small escalating bets with most of its hands, or large over-bets with premium hands. Post-flop lines after raising pre-flop broke out roughly as follows:

  • 10%: normal bets between 50% and 100% of pot, usually either on the flop, turn, or both, with a check on the river (though some bets on the river two), taken with moderate value where I thought the hand was at reasonably high risk of being out drawn
  • 10%: check fold; normally taken in very multi-way pots (5 or more) with a hand with no show down value, no draw, and a very high chance of more than one opponent having a very strong hand already
  • 20%: geometric or other lines aiming to get all chips in the middle, taken with most of my best hands and best draws (and marginal hands that also had good draws)
  • 60%: annoying pressure bets similar to Pressure Cooker, though I tended to increase the size a little relative to what was described for that strategy; note that these bets where made with a very wide range of hand types, from complete trash to drawing hands to marginal made and even modestly solid value hands

Note also that from the blinds I would in general play more passively pre and post flop, creating further diversity in play, and that the percentages above are approximations for how I played from the other positions after a raise.

Here’s the pre-flop range used, though again note that I made fairly frequent mistakes that resulted in my not following this. Still, this was the range I was trying to follow:

  • 6: AA-99, AK, AQs-AJs, KQs, JTs, 98s, 76s
  • 5: +88-66, AQ, ATs, A5s, A4s, all suited broadway, all suited connectors
  • 4: +55-22, AJ, Ax suited, KQ, JT, suited 1 gap
  • 3: +AT, KJ, QJ, suited 2 gap
  • 2: +A9, all broadway, Kx suited, J9, T9
  • 1: +A8, Qx suited, suited 3 gap, Q9, 98
  • 0: +A7, 87, 76, all suited cards

All of these were played for a raise if there was no raise in front, not caring about limps except that with more limps in front the bet would be bigger. Pre-flop bets were almost always pot sized, with a small percent that were slightly larger (raises from the small blind, or with a hand that was less likely to do well multi-way).

GAG Cook results:
Tables played: 50/100 NL Holdem 9 max
Hands played: 1,003
Chips won: $190,806
BB/100 hands: 190.24

Note that I’d generally expect this to do better than GAG, as I get all of the GAG big pot opportunities, but am also making a profit with all of my pressure bluffs, which are also further improving the value I get on the larger bets (probably). GAG made almost all of it’s winnings over one very short session, and I didn’t have a session here quite that dramatic. Still, this is just my guess, and I’ve learned that these things don’t always work out quite like you’d expect. It may be that with GAG, when people are only seeing you make these huge bets, that because there is a tendency for people to think that every large bet where you don’t show your cards down is a bluff, it may be that here people mostly assume that the small bets are bluffs and the big bets are value.

One other thought… it occurred to me after the fact that this style resembles small ball in a number of ways, as you are mostly making small bets. Perhaps the main difference is a much higher frequency of large bets and lines that try to go all in, both with weaker hands that you’d use in Small Ball, and with more bluffs.

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Another good result!

It’s interesting that it seems that --you-- just can’t lose! :slight_smile:

What I think is a common theme in all of your strategies, which shouldn’t be a surprise, starts with preflop hand selection and aggression. I’m using “aggression” in a fairly loose sense here since, if I remember correctly, Lazy Limper and, maybe, Passive Fish didn’t involve actually raising very much, if at all, preflop.

However, particularly for Lazy Limper, I’d say that folding to bets or anticipated bets is an aggressive line especially compared to the people who do play by predominately limping into every hand who are much more prone to call most raises up to about 5BB.

Although I can’t remember the specifics of all of your strategies, my memory tells me that you were c-betting with a fairly high frequency in all styles. I’m discounting Passive Fish because, like you, I just can’t imagine being able to play that way as a default strategy.

Do you have any sense of what your average c-bet frequency was?

It also seems that the strategies that had some % of bluffing were highly successful. Given the amount of advice given that we should avoid bluffing on low stakes tables, I find this quite interesting!

Do you have any thoughts on your bluff:value ratio on the low stakes tables?

Thanks for your time!

Regards,
TA

What I think is a common theme in all of your strategies, which shouldn’t be a surprise, starts with preflop hand selection and aggression. I’m using “aggression” in a fairly loose sense here since, if I remember correctly, Lazy Limper and, maybe, Passive Fish didn’t involve actually raising very much, if at all, preflop.

Yes, I’d mostly agree. I think there were exceptions in both areas, but I’d say that most of the strategies were selective about hands played (though a few were not at all), and that also all of them were aggressive in at least some spots (though they differed greatly in where and how they got aggressive).

Although I can’t remember the specifics of all of your strategies, my memory tells me that you were c-betting with a fairly high frequency in all styles. I’m discounting Passive Fish because, like you, I just can’t imagine being able to play that way as a default strategy.

Do you have any sense of what your average c-bet frequency was?

C-betting varied quite a bit. Super Nit, for example (which did very well in both test runs) used no c-betting at all (well, it c-bet with a strong value range, but I think when we talk about c-betting we’re often talking about all of the bets excluding the strong value part of the range). But in general, yes, there was a pretty high c-betting frequency in most of the strategies. I think the first Value Village c-bet at 100% if heads up (or was that the first TAG run???). In general, I c-bet more with fewer opponents, and generally played more face up in multi-way pots (though Pressure Cooker did not care how many people were in the pot). Overall I’d say I c-bet “more often than not”, but that it was also not unusual to see no c-bet.

It also seems that the strategies that had some % of bluffing were highly successful. Given the amount of advice given that we should avoid bluffing on low stakes tables, I find this quite interesting!

To be honest, when I originally played through these lower levels in 2019, I had very few bluffs. I probably c-bet without value every now and then if I had reason to believe I was not up against a total fish, and likely made a small number of high equity bluffs, but I’d imagine my bluff frequency by street looked something like this:

  • Flop: 30% bluff
  • Turn: 15% bluff
  • River: 5% bluff

But I agree… it has been fascinating to see that you can play styles with a high bluff ratio and still win, and that further, the street where I was bluffing the least ended up seeming like the street where bluffing worked the best (at least in these lower stake test runs), as so many of these people will call a bet of any size on the flop and turn, but then fold to the smallest pathetic little bet on the river. So not risking a lot with the earlier bluffs (and only marginally more with the last) worked so well that I sometimes had a hard time staying in my seat from severe laughter disorder.

So all sorts of styles have worked, as players are making all sorts of mistakes that can be regularly exploited in various ways. What’s most important? Well, I don’t really know, but if I had to pick one thing, I’d say: build a pot when you have a hand. I don’t think there is anything worse than regularly checking or making a min bet with the nuts. Sure, there are spots where that is perfectly reasonable, but if you do it over and over again, you’re just throwing away your best chances to make money.

Of course it also gets complicated, as if you only build a pot when you have a strong hand, observant players won’t be as likely to pay you with worse, and so as opponents get stronger, some kind of balance starts to become necessary, but it’s still important to bet your strongest hands aggressively, most of the time.

I’d also like to mention raising pre flop. Some of my strategies did not do this much (or at all) and still seemed to do fine, but personally, I like building a pot with my better hands, and not raising with the better part of my range pre flop is just like not betting my better hands post flop… I’m losing a chance to create value. Sure, I’ll end up losing a lot of those hands, since pre flop especially, my equity edge will be smaller, but if I have any advantage at all, I’d rather that multiple be applied to a bigger starting number.

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I was playing today with quite a few top 20 players, and watching one of them in particular (someone that has spent considerable time in the top 10) gave me the inspiration for the next strategy (as well as suggesting one that I might try at a future date): Get da Fishy. I think this is a strategy most applicable to some of the highest stakes tables, but I’ll be giving it a run starting tonight on 100/200.

The idea here is basically to try and isolate against the weakest players at the table, and I’ll be implementing that here by having a bifurcated opening range: a very tight range when I don’t see a lot of opportunity to get a weaker than average player for myself, and a much wider range when someone that seems like one of the weakest players seems like they want to get involved in the pot (or are prone to call pre-flop raises, while the better players will fold). Here, I’ll be both limping and raising, depending on whether I think there is value in trying to chase other players away, and I’ll also modulate raise sizes depending on what seems to be effective at isolating. Post flop, I’ll take different types of lines depending on what the particular fish I’ve got seems to find tempting as a lure…

After the run is over, I’ll get a bit more explicit about some of the particulars that I executed repeatedly, but in general, Get Da Fishy is probably moving out of the simple strategy realm, and into play that is less easy to define in advance in any kind of really explicit way.

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Doh… not so impressive so far, and I’m most of the way through the run, with maybe one or two sessions left to complete it. To make matters worse, I’m really playing however I want on this run. Not knowing the players at this level well, I can’t really immediately identify the fish, and so have to rely on really crazy moves to identify those that play unusually poorly for the level, and the result is really that I’m just playing my normal game… raising pre flop whenever I want to, and taking whatever line I’d like at the end.

I’d probably describe my play overall as flat and unimaginative, and overly face up. I’m bluffing every once in a while, but I imagine I’m making at least 3 or 4 value bets for every bluff. I am ratcheting pre-flop raise sizes way, way up (2 to 5 times my normal raise sizes) on tables where I regularly get multiple callers, but that’s about the only interesting move I feel like I’m making (although I’m also pretty aggressive pre-flop in general).

Anyway, if this does badly enough, I think the conclusion might be: I need really simple instructions to follow to do well. LOL :wink:

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